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  • This article sums up how I feel a lot better than I ever could. http://buffalobeast.com/138/Surprise.htm


    DIVE ARTISTS
    Dems 'lose' again on health care
    By Allan Uthman

    Man. It’s been years that I’ve forced myself to observe, with muted horror, the degeneration of political discourse in America. Occasionally, I’ve even had the pleasure of taking part in it. But it seems I’m never quite cynical enough to predict the depths we’re willing to plumb as a nation.

    I thought I was going to write a piece about how stupid it is that the right argues a public option is unfair because private insurance companies can’t compete against it. I mean, it really is an insane position, that we can’t have a public insurance option because it would provide better service for less money. And it’s equally insane to assert that private insurance companies need to make money more than Americans need access to health care.

    But things have spiraled ever downward from there. It’s pointless to even attempt a cogent argument on this subject, when the other side of the debate are running around with their hair on fire, their leaders promoting obvious, absurd lies about “death panels” and… I don’t know, something about Hitler? Shamelessness does have its advantages, apparently. Certainly, no one has to ask Sarah Palin or Newt Gingrich if they have any shame, as was asked old Joe McCarthy, because the answer is obviously no. In a saner country, this “death panel” madness would be the end of Palin’s political ambitions forever. But then, a saner country would have tossed her into the ocean a year ago.

    Anyway, it’s a foregone conclusion that whatever the hell gets through the Senate will be labeled Health Care Reform, or Health Insurance Reform, or just Health Reform as they’ve been calling it lately. And it’s equally clear that it will be pretty much useless, maybe even worse than useless. At best, it might solve the problem of impossible prices the same way Bush solved high drug prices: by making the government pay private businesses top dollar for it.

    That’s how we compromise with industry now. As much as the Democrats are vilifying the insurance companies (and yes, they are villains in this story), the insurance companies will support the horribly mutilated bill that emerges for Obama to sign. Why? Because they will make more money than ever. Instead of a public option, people who can’t afford health insurance will be forced to buy private insurance, the poorest of us subsidized by the government. I suppose, if you have no insurance, that’s better than nothing. But it sure as hell isn’t much good.

    To be fair, there are other good points, supposedly: A ban on rejecting people for preexisting conditions, for instance. But the public option, itself a paltry shadow of what a single-payer system could do for the country, is pretty much dead. It probably won’t survive the Senate process, even in a hollowed-out, meaningless form. Why? Because it would work. It would provide better service for lower costs. And the insurance people can’t have that.

    The problem isn’t that the Democrats are spineless compromise fetishists, as many seem to think. Any smart negotiator knows that you start from a position your opponent deems unacceptable—in this case, a UK-style single-payer system, which would actually reduce costs dramatically and provide decent care for everyone.

    Say Obama had started there. First of all, polls have consistently shown a majority of Americans support a single-payer system, as well as a majority of doctors. When politicians argue it’s not politically viable, they’re referring to staunch corporate opposition, not voter opposition, regardless of a few hundred aged, bewildered Glenn Beck drones shouting “keep your government hands off my Medicare” (actual quote). Secondly, even if it isn’t viable, starting from a single-payer position would ensure that any eventual compromise would be closer to a decent plan than what we’re going to wind up with, now that the Obama administration has started negotiating from an initial position of compromise. Instead, they’re compromising the compromise.

    Why is this? No, it’s not that Democrats are wimps. They’re dive artists. Obama promised health care reform, but do he and his DLC inner circle actually want to weaken the stranglehold medical profiteers have on the public? Or do they just want to make a good show of losing the struggle?

    The case for a single-payer system is rock solid and easy to explain. A single payer bill could be short enough to read in a few minutes—in fact, there is a single-payer bill floating around (doomed by the “too-liberal” names Kucinich-Conyers), and it’s a little over 4,000 words long. Instead, we have a bill that’s over 1,000 pages long, written in typically inscrutable legalese, so dense and obscurantist that Republicans can assert nearly anything about it, from death panels to forcible sterilization, and say “read the bill!” with full knowledge that nobody will, nor could they understand it if they did.

    Perhaps this explains Obama’s complete failure to actually describe the plan, aside from painfully vague references to “reform”. It’s suspicious that a group of people with the kind of supernatural message discipline they exhibited during the presidential campaign can’t muster any kind of reasonable explanation of what the plan is. Why is opposition to the health care bill rising? Not because conservatives don’t want it; they never did. It’s because liberals are starting to smell the bullshit, and recognize that what they’re trying to foist on us is not reform, but a massive boondoggle, just another way to funnel cash to donors. And make no mistake, all of the interested parties in this disgusting extortion racket we call a health care system have thrown mountains of cash at all of the important Democrats involved. Why, after all have pharmaceutical companies committed to spend hundreds of millions promoting the bill in a disturbing backroom deal with the White House, if it isn’t a simple boondoggle? Why has the AMA, a longstanding opponent of any form of socialized medicine, come out in favor of it? Because, unfortunately, and despite the constant refrain from the paranoid rednecks, there’s nothing socialist about it. And it might be baffling, if you don’t understand where the real power is in the Party.

    Put it this way: After eight years solid of Republicans proving themselves to be dishonest, corrupt and incompetent, what if the Democrats provided universal health coverage and paid for it by taxing the rich? I’ll tell you what: They wouldn’t lose another election for decades. It is actually in the party’s self-interest to do these things. And yet, they don’t. Why? Because there’s one thing even more important to politicians than votes, and that’s money. Hell, even if Max Baucus loses his next election, his income level will skyrocket, thanks to the profiteers he’s protecting now.

    Less than a year ago, Republicans were handed their walking papers, and the national consensus was that they were worse than worthless. And yet they are controlling this debate? With transparent lies and spooky stories—about the kind of health care system that the entire first world enjoys, and nobody seems to regret? Bullshit. Even with the help of Frank Luntz, the GOP’s talking points suck, and could be effectively rebutted—even by Harry Reid, let alone Obama. Health care rationing? Bureaucrats between you and your doctor? Life-saving procedures denied or delayed? All of these are already rampant in the private system. For every isolated horror story the Right can find in Canada or England, there are hundreds in your own neighborhood. And national health care never leaves individuals destitute or with impossible debt.

    The Democrats seem to be throwing this thing on purpose. The public option is DOA and was probably always meant to be. And it’s not because they’re wussy or incompetent. It’s because they’re corrupt. It’s because all they are is the sock puppet on the left hand of corporate hegemony. Bribery is legal in this country—we call it campaign finance. That’s why we can’t have a single-payer system, and that’s why this bill devolving into yet another massive theft of taxpayer money was a foregone conclusion. In the end, maybe some poor people will be able to get treatment when they couldn’t before, but only in the weakest, most costly and corrupt way conceivable. And if that’s the only way we can do it, then I guess I’m for it.
    Mr 12 inch wonder

    Comment


    • Epi touched upon what is really underneath the issue, does society want to make the same level of health care available to ALL people or not? Is it ok that a certain level of basic health care is standard but wealthier people can buy a higher level? If a society mandates that everyone get the same level of health care where do you draw the line at what other services to make equal? Does society start mandating the same equality level of housing? Education (i.e. free 4 year degree, free Masters level? Free PhDs? )?
      Note that I am talking only in an ethical/morality context, not in a cost context.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
        Epi touched upon what is really underneath the issue, does society want to make the same level of health care available to ALL people or not? Is it ok that a certain level of basic health care is standard but wealthier people can buy a higher level? If a society mandates that everyone get the same level of health care where do you draw the line at what other services to make equal? Does society start mandating the same equality level of housing? Education (i.e. free 4 year degree, free Masters level? Free PhDs? )?
        Note that I am talking only in an ethical/morality context, not in a cost context.
        Eph, if someone is homeless or on an extremely low income odds are in either a public, single payer system or private system their access to health care is low or non-existent. If it's such a concern of yours, homeless people draining a public system by utilizing cancer treatments and other costly items why not actually look into how such a system is utilized.

        Comment


        • this country is 10 trillion in the hole and already 1.7 trillion FOR THIS YEAR ALONE wake the fuck up people ROME IS BURNING SON

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kolar View Post
            Eph, if someone is homeless or on an extremely low income odds are in either a public, single payer system or private system their access to health care is low or non-existent. If it's such a concern of yours, homeless people draining a public system by utilizing cancer treatments and other costly items why not actually look into how such a system is utilized.
            I was not advocating one position or another, I was simply asking folks what the think about the ethical/morality aspects of the issue.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
              I was not advocating one position or another, I was simply asking folks what the think about the ethical/morality aspects of the issue.
              So, if we had 30 million expert doctors who are all willing to work for free, would it be unethical of them not to help everyone equally? Is that what you're asking?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
                Epi touched upon what is really underneath the issue, does society want to make the same level of health care available to ALL people or not? Is it ok that a certain level of basic health care is standard but wealthier people can buy a higher level? If a society mandates that everyone get the same level of health care where do you draw the line at what other services to make equal? Does society start mandating the same equality level of housing? Education (i.e. free 4 year degree, free Masters level? Free PhDs? )?
                Note that I am talking only in an ethical/morality context, not in a cost context.
                Well in the end it's what the society values. There are many arguments on either side of the debate which don't even take on the issue of values (i.e. Eric's economic efficiency vs Jerome's capitalism) but at the core I believe it's basically two things:

                1) Belief that people can do whatever they want and not be responsible for anyone else in a society

                2) Belief that one should be required to help out others (people unrelated to you) in a society

                Sort of like the abortion thing, except this isn't religious, so eventually I think the debate will end once one side gains the upper hand.
                Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
                www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

                My anime blog:
                www.animeslice.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Eric is God View Post
                  I'll even provide people who are against a public option with the best possible argument. Governments are bureaucracies, which by nature are bloated and inefficient. Therefore, it's best left to the private sector to provide all health insurance coverage. If anyone wants to argue from that point of view I'm all ears.
                  I see you've been reading my posts...also on how inefficient government is. You've been doing your homework
                  I'm just a middle-aged, middle-eastern camel herdin' man
                  I got a 2 bedroom cave here in North Afghanistan

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mattey View Post
                    The regulations and baffling rig-a-ma-roll comes from collusion between the insurance companies and the gubment. This is why a single-payer system where the insurance companies are entirely eliminated makes the most sense. No bullshit paperwork, no profiting off of people's bad health.
                    Ask a cop how much 'bullshit' paperwork they have to do every time they make an arrest or even write a ticket.

                    Government is notorious for forms and paperwork dipshit. So you're going to throw government into healthcare and all of a sudden have the paperwork go away?
                    I'm just a middle-aged, middle-eastern camel herdin' man
                    I got a 2 bedroom cave here in North Afghanistan

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Vatican Assassin View Post
                      So, if we had 30 million expert doctors who are all willing to work for free, would it be unethical of them not to help everyone equally? Is that what you're asking?
                      Is it ethical for a society to support a basic level of health care for free but have available a higher level of health care for anyone who can afford it?
                      Or
                      Should everyone receive the same level of health care?

                      Then, if everyone is to receive the same level of health care would not the same ethical principals then apply to other services such as housing and education.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Izor View Post
                        I see you've been reading my posts...
                        Rofl, you say that as if you are some kind of authority on the subject...
                        Maybe God was the first suicide bomber and the Big Bang was his moment of Glory.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ephemeral View Post
                          Then, if everyone is to receive the same level of health care would not the same ethical principals then apply to other services such as housing and education.
                          Uh, there already is public housing and public education. The only one that's missing... is public health care.

                          Of course you can pay to get a better house, and you can pay to get a better education, but that's a bit different than paying to get to the front of the line to see a doctor. It's up to the individual to decide if it's ethical to be able to pay to get to the front of the line to see a doctor. Personally, I don't think it's ethical, but that's because I'm a good person.
                          Mr 12 inch wonder

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mattey View Post
                            Uh, there already is public housing and public education. The only one that's missing... is public health care.

                            Of course you can pay to get a better house, and you can pay to get a better education, but that's a bit different than paying to get to the front of the line to see a doctor. It's up to the individual to decide if it's ethical to be able to pay to get to the front of the line to see a doctor. Personally, I don't think it's ethical, but that's because I'm a good person.
                            How is it not ethical? You guys completely dont understand that there are people 'more important' than all of us. Or that those who have money have earned themselves certain priveleges with that money, that they should be able to utilize such as top notch healthcare. It would be unethical to take someone that has had a very successful life, and sit him down behind some homeless person in line because they are 'equal'
                            I'm just a middle-aged, middle-eastern camel herdin' man
                            I got a 2 bedroom cave here in North Afghanistan

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Epinephrine View Post
                              Well in the end it's what the society values. There are many arguments on either side of the debate which don't even take on the issue of values (i.e. Eric's economic efficiency vs Jerome's capitalism)
                              A few questions

                              1. What is "society"? Who? Where is it? How do I contact it to ask it what it values?

                              2. How does "capitalism" (i.e. economics, the field which studies interpersonal exchange, and effects of government intervention on exchange) not a relevant argument?

                              3. Moreso, how is "capitalism" value-free? The very concept - humans exchanging goods, material and nonmaterial - implies core values: liberty, property, et cetera. It's not like those are important values or anything, not like they helped spread the flame of revolution throughout most of western civilization, creating many of our most highest valued ideals, or anything.

                              As for the dual-side issue you break it down into, I see some clever wordplay:

                              1) Belief that people can do whatever they want and not be responsible for anyone else in a society
                              "Doing whatever you want" and "not being responsible for anyone" are not mutually exclusive. Epi, you chose to be a man who is fairly altruistic, as far as I can tell. But... that was just you doing whatever you wanted to do. People do all sorts of things. They're... people!

                              2) Belief that one should be required to help out others (people unrelated to you) in a society
                              This is more or less on point as far as describing this view. I dunno, look at taxes. Taxes are a "requirement to help out others", and noone seems to feel happy about it. I mean, what kind of hollow victory is forcing ("requirement" is such a nice word for what it really is) people to be 'altruistic'? Is it really, truly, what you would see as morally or ethically satisfying? It's not being selfless, or caring - it's following orders.

                              The very idea of "morality" implies there is a good choice, and a bad choice. The act of being moral is the act of making that right choice. What moral high ground is there when the choice is coerced - when the choice is made for you? What is moral about taking away rights and property in the name of being moral? What is moral about that system being enforced even on those who oppose it?

                              Maybe Mr. Society, whoever he is, can tell me. Alot of people seem to know him, know what he wants, and know what he values - but I've never seen the dude. Am I missing something?
                              NOSTALGIA IN THE WORST FASHION

                              internet de la jerome

                              because the internet | hazardous

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Izor View Post
                                How is it not ethical? You guys completely dont understand that there are people 'more important' than all of us. Or that those who have money have earned themselves certain priveleges with that money, that they should be able to utilize such as top notch healthcare. It would be unethical to take someone that has had a very successful life, and sit him down behind some homeless person in line because they are 'equal'
                                You're implying the every wealthy person has worked for his or her money. I don't doubt a lot have, but some haven't. The argument that rich people deserve better treatment because they worked for their money doesn't hold up when people were simply given money.

                                Originally posted by Ephermal
                                Then, if everyone is to receive the same level of health care would not the same ethical principals then apply to other services such as housing and education.
                                Providing everyone with some standard of health care is doable and morally the right thing to do. I'm not opposed to a two tear system, so rich people would still be able to get better treatment if they're willing to fork out the money for it. That is to say that at the same time the public system can't look like a fucking joke.

                                Wanting everyone to be able to see a doctor and wanting them to drive the same car as you, or live in the same neighborhood is a different story. You're basically taking one idea and saying how it could get out of control and move into other sectors, and the truth is that sounds like fear mongering. I really don't get this fear of Universal health care, I get the fear of the bill that's being work on right now, but the overall idea doesn't mean your country automatically stops being capitalistic or democratic.
                                Last edited by Cops; 09-11-2009, 01:32 AM.
                                it makes me sick when i think of it, all my heroes could not live with it so i hope you rest in peace cause with us you never did

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