Bizarre Health Care Reactions

[Galleleo]

do you even have a job dipshit?

Why would I need a job? I am a student.

[Izor]

You havent done anything productive for society, so in other words you dont know shit. So stop talking please and thank you

[Galleleo]

So, you say I don't know shit, while you actually don't know shit about my life and what I have and/or haven't done for society?

I don't have a job, but that doesn't mean that I haven't done a lot of volunteer work and thus contributed more to society than your measly army accomplishments. And really, your posts in this thread are more than enough proof that I know a shitload more than you do.

[Izor]

oh really? part of the job as a military member is giving back to the community. I think you'd be surprised at how much volunteer work we do, be it DASH, habitat for humanity, or most recently for me working at a soup kitchen. Regardless, the point of volunteer work is not to come home and brag about what youve done.

I'm saying you havent had a real job where you've done something productive for society, gotten paid normally for it, and then seen other people that dont work collect similar paychecks. Yes I understand the exaggeration there but they get enough to live somewhat comfortably for doing nothing while you may eventually bust your balls to live a slightly better life

[DoTheFandango]

you guys are all so dumb i am the best person ever because i voluntarily signed up for something because i am the best alright got it you all suck fucking faggots i hope you all realize that i am a better human being than you faggots i hope you believe in jesus because you're going to fucking hell becaus eyou suck fucking queer homo worthless pieces of shit.

[D1st0rt]

usa is the best

/thread

[Epinephrine]

I'm saying you havent had a real job where you've done something productive for society, gotten paid normally for it, and then seen other people that dont work collect similar paychecks. Yes I understand the exaggeration there but they get enough to live somewhat comfortably for doing nothing while you may eventually bust your balls to live a slightly better life

Society is set up so that people at the top are protected by laws and protected by democratic ideals. Rich people are not just rich because they are hard working. They are rich in large part because the people around them guarantee their well being via laws and agreed upon rules. This is a fundamental philosophical issue which people who are rich often fail to see or are willingly ignoring.

Because they are thus protected, there should be a trade off where these same people owe society back something for all they have benefited from.

As a counter example, if there weren't all these rules about how businesses can run, intellectual property protections, court system, guarantees of wealth and so on, being rich and making a lot of money could be meaningless. Just as how in Russia billionaires will routinely get jailed because they are too powerful, or how in places like China lax intellectual property rules don't allow creative people to make much money, we can routinely see how when society fails, everyone is poorer.

Because it is EVERYONE including the 'poor' who by living in a one person one vote democratic society whom provide agreement to these rules, and it is precisely because it is the 'poor' who enforce the rules (police officers, national guard, etc. are rarely considered wealthy), part of the trade off should be that those at the top owe something back to those at the bottom.

The true moral of this, is that those at the top should be taxed to allow the most basic necessities to be enjoyed by those at the bottom, and taxed at a rate that those at the top can easily bear. Taxation should always be progressive (more tax for richer) and at a rate so that while working hard still gets you more, you are giving back to the society that has given you so much security.

Considering universal healthcare is one such basic necessity and as basically every other country in the developed world has shown is easily affordable with the payment of taxes, it should be done.

[Cops]

Exactly. There is no country that is strictly Capitalist. Strict Capitalism just doesn't work.

The funny thing is that people still pretend that it would work.

[Izor]

Society is set up so that people at the top are protected by laws and protected by democratic ideals. Rich people are not just rich because they are hard working. They are rich in large part because the people around them guarantee their well being via laws and agreed upon rules. This is a fundamental philosophical issue which people who are rich often fail to see or are willingly ignoring.

Because they are thus protected, there should be a trade off where these same people owe society back something for all they have benefited from.

As a counter example, if there weren't all these rules about how businesses can run, intellectual property protections, court system, guarantees of wealth and so on, being rich and making a lot of money could be meaningless. Just as how in Russia billionaires will routinely get jailed because they are too powerful, or how in places like China lax intellectual property rules don't allow creative people to make much money, we can routinely see how when society fails, everyone is poorer.

Because it is EVERYONE including the 'poor' who by living in a one person one vote democratic society whom provide agreement to these rules, and it is precisely because it is the 'poor' who enforce the rules (police officers, national guard, etc. are rarely considered wealthy), part of the trade off should be that those at the top owe something back to those at the bottom.

The true moral of this, is that those at the top should be taxed to allow the most basic necessities to be enjoyed by those at the bottom, and taxed at a rate that those at the top can easily bear. Taxation should always be progressive (more tax for richer) and at a rate so that while working hard still gets you more, you are giving back to the society that has given you so much security.

Considering universal healthcare is one such basic necessity and as basically every other country in the developed world has shown is easily affordable with the payment of taxes, it should be done.

So you should tax them higher and then also make them pay for various other things like healthcare? What limit is 'rich' to pay for all that??? 250000 like obama said? More? Less? They're the ones with the money if they want to give it away to people thats on them. How can you just take it from them more than anyone else?

Also, being 'affordable' isnt necessarily going to be the case when we have so much defense spending. All the money other countries arent spending on their militaries can go to their healthcare. But in my mind and the mind of most others that i know our military is what keeps us separated from the rest of the 'civilized' world

[Galleleo]

Saying that I have done volunteer work has nothing to do with me pretending to be a better human being, all you did was say that I never did anything for society, but I have.

I'm saying you havent had a real job where you've done something productive for society, gotten paid normally for it, and then seen other people that dont work collect similar paychecks. Yes I understand the exaggeration there but they get enough to live somewhat comfortably for doing nothing while you may eventually bust your balls to live a slightly better life

As for that, I live in a country based on a socialist system in as far as that we take care of the weaker, less fortunate people, so I know exactly how it works and no you can't just say: you know what, I ain't working, gimme my money. If you think it does, you are even more dimwitted than I thought you were.

[Squeezer]

Epi just summed up most of my political belief structure

[Summa]

250000 like obama said?

This would be the cap on itemized deductions. If you don't know what itemized deductions are please look it up. They aren't just going to charge the rich 250k. I agree with epi in terms of a progressive tax system. Particularly in a society like ours where wealth and social standing is so much so determined by heredity and inheritance.

As for your earlier assault on me, I do give back to the economy. I work 2 jobs currently, and even though I qualify as work study-eligible for one of them, I choose not to circle that option every time on my time sheet. Instead I pay full taxes to my government rather than getting them reduced. I don't think many people would do that. Most would simply take their extra money and go. Hell most people simply do volunteer work for the tax breaks.

[Epinephrine]

So you should tax them higher and then also make them pay for various other things like healthcare? What limit is 'rich' to pay for all that??? 250000 like obama said? More? Less? They're the ones with the money if they want to give it away to people thats on them. How can you just take it from them more than anyone else?

Everyone pays for healthcare, the rich are taxed more, so they bear more of the burden.

It's not about whether people can do 'whatever they want' with their money. The basic fact is that a lot of 'poorer' people struggle every day and agree to society's rules because of the very fact that they support a system where anyone with an idea can get rich and that money that they earn is guaranteed. When you have such a system, there's trade offs.

The alternative is there is no guarantee that working hard will get you money, no guarantee that there's any protections in court for any business deal, and no guarantee of safety that society provides. If that is so, the rich will hire their own protection, stamp down any other people who want to work hard and be rich and challenge them, and society will go back to the middle ages.

I don't know about an exact money limit, that's for the politicians to decide. But the philosophical principles should be that people who can afford to live much better than the average person and can easily afford luxuries that the average person struggles to get should definitely be taxed more.

Taxing these people more doesn't take away from their livelihoods, and as taxation is based on percentages, these people will still make vastly more money than the average person, and every extra dollar they make will still contribute to their wealth. But yes, they will have to make do with less luxuries to support society as society has given them so much.

Also, being 'affordable' isnt necessarily going to be the case when we have so much defense spending. All the money other countries arent spending on their militaries can go to their healthcare. But in my mind and the mind of most others that i know our military is what keeps us separated from the rest of the 'civilized' world

This is a straw man argument. The military has nothing to do with it.

Currently the USA spends 50-100% more per person on healthcare than any other country. Simply change that money from private spending to taxes, and you can easily afford healthcare. That money is spent anyway and for the vast majority of people, there's honestly no difference between money that your employer pays HMOs that you never see anyway, and having your employer pay the government considering how horrible HMOs are in the first place.

Actually if you pay for healthcare at the per person rate as the next most expensive country, people could probably stop paying all out of pocket premiums (don't employers usually cover the majority of health expenses already?) and if they so wish, use the money they now use for their out of pocket health premiums and deductibles to pay for a private 2-tier system.

[Izor]

How is it a 'straw mans argument'? Look at european countries with the amount of taxes that they already pay they would not be able to fight a war right now. They'd literally be losing over 50% of what they earn each paycheck instead of the already ridiculous, but slightly less ridiculous amount they pay now.

You guys are defending the same type of policies that have already set us up to be run into the ground in the near future, such as spending money that was printed out of thin air that is going to make other countries lose faith in the dollar. While the effect isnt seen right now, a few years down the road it certainly will be. Now you want to promote the same dipshit's plan to have the government take over your healthcare. This isnt just stupid...it goes against the very principles this country was founded on. All because you were promised and think you can achieve the same comforts of life as the rich. What a ridiculously lazy generation...I'm truly embarrassed to have grown up with people with those thoughts. None of you want to earn anything

[Epinephrine]

How is it a 'straw mans argument'? Look at european countries with the amount of taxes that they already pay they would not be able to fight a war right now. They'd literally be losing over 50% of what they earn each paycheck instead of the already ridiculous, but slightly less ridiculous amount they pay now.

It's a straw man argument because military spending has NOTHING to do with healthcare.

Currently people in the USA pay a lot of private money into healthcare. If there was a universal system, there'd be ZERO NEED to pay any private money into healthcare. If only 1/2 the amount of the current amount of private money that is spent on healthcare were directly collected in taxes, then universal healthcare would be fully funded.

So actually, having universal healthcare would actually SAVE everyone a lot of money, mainly because private healthcare as it exists in the USA now, costs more! Now if people still want some bit of private healthcare, they can choose to spend that leftover money that they've saved, and still get some limited private coverage for stuff the government won't pay for.


Overall, everyone ends up spending the same amount of money (or less) on healthcare, it's just shifted from spending to taxes. And of course the big difference is that ~45 million people now have coverage, and most everyone else who routinely gets screwed by insurance companies won't be any longer.