Is all socialism bad?

[Summa]

One last thing. Our economy is doing much better than America. Our debt levels are lower. Our taxes are almost equivalent but we get free healthcare and they have to pay for it. Our unemployment rate is much lower. With our soaring dollar, we're almost equivalent in GDP per capita now compared to the USA. And with the exception of Vancouver, we don't have a housing bubble like they did because we have much stronger mortgage laws than they do.

I don't know much about the Canadian housing market, being that I am an American citizen, but in terms of general economics; I would have 1 reservation and 1 inclination in terms of buying in the current Canadian economy.

Reservation: Most of the rapid expansion in GDP per capita in Canada occurred from late 2001 til early 2006, and in 2009 (following the crash in America) there was a giant downward spike, which Canada has done a better job of recovering from than America. However that spike downward in GDP per capita was not a spike caused by your markets or your system, it was an external influence that primarily caused it. So knowing some macro-economics, times of rapid expansion (2001-2006) usually don't last more than 9 years at most and are followed up by either recession or slower growth. Thus, don't expect any rapid economic growth in the next couple years, i.e. raises/cost of living adjustments/etc may not be what you are expecting.

Inclination: I know that this is the case in America (not 100% sure about Canada), and if it is the same there then cool beans! If not, well this is useless. However, one of the reasons why the markets in America are having a shit time recovering is because consumer confidence is very low. People now more than any time post WWII are choosing to put money into savings or save money rather than put it back into the market. When consumer confidence is low, and you are sitting on enough money; you can usually find the best deals.

[Jack]

You are right, I am a relativist, all points are equal and valid. If all is permissible then I suppose I am the fool. I've read the book and I can see what was meant that lack of ego means you are not a man, my heart tells me to disagree, yet I'll have to think about it more. This response is not well thought out.

[Cops]

I don't know much about the Canadian housing market, being that I am an American citizen, but in terms of general economics; I would have 1 reservation and 1 inclination in terms of buying in the current Canadian economy.

Reservation: Most of the rapid expansion in GDP per capita in Canada occurred from late 2001 til early 2006, and in 2009 (following the crash in America) there was a giant downward spike, which Canada has done a better job of recovering from than America. However that spike downward in GDP per capita was not a spike caused by your markets or your system, it was an external influence that primarily caused it. So knowing some macro-economics, times of rapid expansion (2001-2006) usually don't last more than 9 years at most and are followed up by either recession or slower growth. Thus, don't expect any rapid economic growth in the next couple years, i.e. raises/cost of living adjustments/etc may not be what you are expecting.

Inclination: I know that this is the case in America (not 100% sure about Canada), and if it is the same there then cool beans! If not, well this is useless. However, one of the reasons why the markets in America are having a shit time recovering is because consumer confidence is very low. People now more than any time post WWII are choosing to put money into savings or save money rather than put it back into the market. When consumer confidence is low, and you are sitting on enough money; you can usually find the best deals.

From what Epi is saying, regardless of consumer confidence our housing market is pretty solid. I know our regulation played a huge part in helping Canada avoid a housing crisis during the sub-prime crisis. At the same time, our economy isn't doing that well and the job market is bleak. Business is capitalizing on this by hiring more people as contract workers, instead of hiring full-time workers and giving benefits. Youth unemployment is double what our general labour force is. Students are taking on more debt and with little oppurtunties upon graduation are struggling to pay off their student loans, which is why for a lot of youth owning your own house is a pipe dream. I figured something would have to give, guess not though.

Thanks Epi, I appreciate your post. I looked into the unemployment rates, and we are doing something like 2% better than the states. I'm not interested in flipping homes or making profit, I'm intesrested in putting down roots and not paying rent. The only issue I have is that housing prices in the outlining suburbs, such as Mississauga seem to climb and climb. The longer you wait to buy a home, the more likely you are to be further away from the city. At some point it will become unrealisitc to drive two to three hours to work every day. I'm interested in Waterloo-Kitchener, it's a cool city that has really made some headway in the past couple years. I'm not certain on the availablity of jobs or the future prospects of RIM (Company that makes Black Berry) but the city seems to be doing really well. It's a shame they didn't get a hockey team, it would only benefit the city ten folds. Places like London, Mississauga, Kitchener-Waterloo, and Hamilton need to develop more industry and less houses, or at least find a better balance between the two.

[Epinephrine]

I don't know much about the Canadian housing market, being that I am an American citizen, but in terms of general economics; I would have 1 reservation and 1 inclination in terms of buying in the current Canadian economy.

Reservation: Most of the rapid expansion in GDP per capita in Canada occurred from late 2001 til early 2006, and in 2009 (following the crash in America) there was a giant downward spike, which Canada has done a better job of recovering from than America. However that spike downward in GDP per capita was not a spike caused by your markets or your system, it was an external influence that primarily caused it. So knowing some macro-economics, times of rapid expansion (2001-2006) usually don't last more than 9 years at most and are followed up by either recession or slower growth. Thus, don't expect any rapid economic growth in the next couple years, i.e. raises/cost of living adjustments/etc may not be what you are expecting.

Inclination: I know that this is the case in America (not 100% sure about Canada), and if it is the same there then cool beans! If not, well this is useless. However, one of the reasons why the markets in America are having a shit time recovering is because consumer confidence is very low. People now more than any time post WWII are choosing to put money into savings or save money rather than put it back into the market. When consumer confidence is low, and you are sitting on enough money; you can usually find the best deals.

I believe since the financial crisis 2 years ago, Canada has had the most solid economy of the entire G8. While most other places got hammered, we're more or less back to where we were before this thing started.

That said, I don't think anyone expects anything like strong growth for the near future here. At best we're looking at 2-3% GDP growth a year, but nothing to sneeze at. We're nowhere near default. We haven't had to enact brutal austerity measures like Europe and like what is headed for America (once that supercommittee fails to come to any agreements). Our housing market hasn't tanked unlike Europe and the US. Our levels of inequality are not as high as the US.

I think best case we'll have an economy that won't sink and we will retain our living standards, but I don't see much real improvement. But this is a problem with the entire developed world I think. Once everyone has their own computer/tv/car/appliances/home there's not much you can do to really expand living standards because you can only use and take care of so much stuff (i.e. I'd never want a second home because I don't have the time to care for it).

[Tone]

All socialism is bad except for Center-Right Social Libertarianism where the lottery & a voluntary taxation program pays for welfare for the disabled, sick, injured and victimized at a fraction of the cost of today's big government programs all added up; and when in conjunction with private welfare programs to take part of the load as well.

Programs in parks, education, medicine, job training & etc must all be eliminated and no longer government activities; in favor of ONLY funding critical welfare for the disabled, sick, injured and victimized at a fraction of the cost of today's big government programs all added up.

If you are libertarian, you do not necessarily have to be for 100% pure in theory libertarianism where the federal government only prints money and runs the military & supreme courts. You can be a mild-social libertarian where what you believe would have a cost & scope of programs a very tiny fraction of what it is under all governments of the world today. ]

Its like being a vegetarian instead of vegan and eliminating 99% of animal products for drastic change. The vegetarian is still profoundly closer to veganism than meat eating, rather than "in between" or "midway". A Mild-Social Libertarian would still be profoundly closer to libertarianism and not midway between libertarianism & democrat/republican

[Summa]

All socialism is bad except for Center-Right Social Libertarianism where the lottery & a voluntary taxation program pays for welfare for the disabled, sick, injured and victimized at a fraction of the cost of today's big government programs all added up; and when in conjunction with private welfare programs to take part of the load as well.

Programs in parks, education, medicine, job training & etc must all be eliminated and no longer government activities; in favor of ONLY funding critical welfare for the disabled, sick, injured and victimized at a fraction of the cost of today's big government programs all added up.

If you are libertarian, you do not necessarily have to be for 100% pure in theory libertarianism where the federal government only prints money and runs the military & supreme courts. You can be a mild-social libertarian where what you believe would have a cost & scope of programs a very tiny fraction of what it is under all governments of the world today. ]

Its like being a vegetarian instead of vegan and eliminating 99% of animal products for drastic change. The vegetarian is still profoundly closer to veganism than meat eating, rather than "in between" or "midway". A Mild-Social Libertarian would still be profoundly closer to libertarianism and not midway between libertarianism & democrat/republican

This system sounds great if you're into socio-economic and biological inheritance determining 75% of your life!

I understand the libertarian arguments for minimizing government involvement in extraneous affairs, and there are completely legitimate arguments. However, what you have stated doesn't even cover what I would call "basic rights". I cannot possibly see how this view on society would ever be chosen from "The Original Position" (John Rawls - A Theory of Justice). You're going to have to concede more than you have.

Beyond that, from a purely logistical standpoint, government in general is not good or effective at deconstructing itself; particularly from a legislative point of view. The simple fact that we are historically at a point where education is "free" is something you have to deal with. Whether or not you agree with it being there is irrelevant, an attempted removal of gov't involvement and funding would result in citizens revolting in a violent manner. The same goes with any politician who tires to discontinue programs such as social security (old people are the people who vote), they will simply commit political suicide for themself and their party.

So you see, there is an idealistic component to your argument and a practical component, and both fail. Practically is where you're really fucked. Like seriously, government is good at getting bigger, not smaller. The ideal component I think you could make a case for if you gave a few more concessions for what most people would consider basic rights/goods. But w/e enjoy your inheritance shithole.

[TagMor]

[Tone]

This system sounds great if you're into socio-economic and biological inheritance determining 75% of your life!

I understand the libertarian arguments for minimizing government involvement in extraneous affairs, and there are completely legitimate arguments. However, what you have stated doesn't even cover what I would call "basic rights". I cannot possibly see how this view on society would ever be chosen from "The Original Position" (John Rawls - A Theory of Justice). You're going to have to concede more than you have.

Beyond that, from a purely logistical standpoint, government in general is not good or effective at deconstructing itself; particularly from a legislative point of view. The simple fact that we are historically at a point where education is "free" is something you have to deal with. Whether or not you agree with it being there is irrelevant, an attempted removal of gov't involvement and funding would result in citizens revolting in a violent manner. The same goes with any politician who tires to discontinue programs such as social security (old people are the people who vote), they will simply commit political suicide for themself and their party.

So you see, there is an idealistic component to your argument and a practical component, and both fail. Practically is where you're really fucked. Like seriously, government is good at getting bigger, not smaller. The ideal component I think you could make a case for if you gave a few more concessions for what most people would consider basic rights/goods. But w/e enjoy your inheritance shithole.

Some people Inherent different religions of which some are even more crazy and brain washing than others

People inherent different genetic diseases, would you like a central government to direct the future genetic engineering technologies? Good luck with that!

There are many other issues that are inherent, shall the all-wise benevolent government attempt to intervene fix them all? What else is inherent that the government should be responsible for attempting to alter where it backfires and makes things worse and amplifies hell?

Sorry but your the one advocating for failure. If you attempt to put the government on a mission of equalities what will happen is it backfires and the equality goes down instead of up.

The about of equality rises with lowering government size and intervention, Especially when talking about federal / central governments even more so than state county and local. To simple first thinking, this seems counter-intuitive.

Equality will have to be reached by a different method other than the government, because if the government gets involved, it backfires, lowering equality.

Your system of big government compulsory collectivism not only backfires in its attempt for raised equality, but it ends up spilling over into other forms of liberty outside of economic liberty, for instance wars on drugs, alternative medicine, lifestyle & social issues.

Coercive & collectivist methods of attempting to raise equality always backfire and end up doing more harm than good

Also, 100% of your income tax goes to pay interest on the federal reserve, and the amount of money that goes to non-defense military spending, secret black budget programs, and wasteful spending is many fold over than the amount of money that would be needed for basic welfare of the victimized, sick, disabled, unfortunate. So the good news is you can have small government & welfare at the same time like my original post states, and do it in a way where it doesnt backfire

No immature teenager collectivist authoritarian socialist naive platforms that fuck us all over and make things worse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

True Libertarians dont have a barbaric apathetic evil Darwinist thought of survival of the fittest, where they think inequality is good and right. Rather, they assert that the libertarian way leads to the best situation in an imperfect world, and government always fails and backfires when it either tries to do beyond its means or do things coercive.

When i was younger, i didnt know this and thought right-wingers had a love affair with inequality - thats because they showed fake right wingers and neocons on TV all the time who are in fact evil.

Want to make the best out of a hard unequal brutal world? let the people do the most by their free will, and let the local and state governments have more responsibilities than the federal / central governments. Or else expect central banks to devalue currency, wars to rule the world, injustices to numerous to list, no checks and balances of 50 separate state and thousands of county governments where it may at least be possible to move, and other terrible fails.

[Ephemeral]

yadda yadda yadda…
Also, 100% of your income tax goes to pay interest on the federal reserve, and the amount of money that goes to non-defense military spending, secret black budget programs, and wasteful spending is many fold over than the amount of money that would be needed for basic welfare of the victimized, sick, disabled, unfortunate. So the good news is you can have small government & welfare at the same time like my original post states, and do it in a way where it doesnt backfire
…yadda yafdda yadda

Even though I hate responding to a zero creditability conspiracy-centric moron, I hate it even more when people post misleading information and/or opinion as fact.
First, the national debt is not managed or controlled by the Federal Reserve. It is managed by the Treasury Department (actually it is the Bureau of the Public Debt which is under the Treasury Department). Second, most people put the percentage of income tax that goes towards the national debt is between 1/10% and 3%, depending on how it is measured. Bottom line, the bottom line doesn’t even come close to supporting this kind of stupidity unless you are willing to throw reasonable thinking out the door and buy into a pure conspiracy theory of a massive government cover-up that spreads across a few hundred of thousands of people (guess that isn’t a stretch for a person who is drinking purple KoolAid in his tinfoil hat while waiting for the aliens to land).
These are public numbers that are easily confirmed and it is simple math. For example, in 2006 the revenue from income taxes was $1.04T while the Federal Reserve reported about $36B in interest, $30B of which the Fed Reserve gave back to the Treasury, netting a total of $6B.

Tone has simply bought into and is parroting a 1990’s conspiracy theory that was first stated in a Money Masters documentary. This documentary cites The Grace Commission report and epitomizes how to lie with numbers.
“Resistance to additional income taxes would be even more widespread if people were aware that:
One-third of all their taxes is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the Federal Government as we identified in our survey.
Another one-third of all their taxes escapes collection from others as the underground economy blossoms in direct proportion to tax increases and places even more pressure on law abiding taxpayers, promoting still more underground economy-a vicious cycle that must be broken.
With two-thirds of everyone's personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government.”

So according to Tones position, if you completely ignore what this panel calls “waste and inefficiency” as well as “Federal Government contributions to transfer payments” AND the fact that they completely omit corporate taxes and only consider individual income taxes, THEN you can come closer to saying that 100% of your income taxes goes to pay the interest.

Best approach, believe nothing that Tone states. Not only has he proven himself as not having any creditability (i.e. his now infamous post that he would never post again if the aliens didn’t land on earth by the end of the year but he continues to post misinformation and half-truths that only half-wits would believe. IMO, even the entertainment value his posts greatly dropped, becoming stale, predictable and boring.
eph

[Tone]

Many times i say i am leaving the board, then leave. Dont you remember how i say "this board is uninformed and barbaric, now leaving" and then you dont see me for months? that has occurred many times

Are you uncomfortable with the conspiracy info or is it that you are a collectivist, or both?

I May have to again leave this board until it becomes informed !!

[Epinephrine]

If we don't have a strong central government, then how will we resist the inevitable alien invasion?

=============
Good morning. In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. Mankind; that word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can’t be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it’s fate that today is the 4th of July and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution, but from annihilation. We’re fighting for our right to live, to exist. And should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice: ‘We will not go quietly into the night!’ ‘We will not vanish without a fight!’ ‘We’re going to live on!’ ‘We’re going to survive!’ Today we celebrate our Independence Day!
=============

[Jerome Scuggs]

[Tone]

Alien invasion is disinformation put out by the dark controlled news media, and ExtraTerrestrials are good benevolent allies here to help us

Also, you forgot that libertarianism means the federal government is still responsible for the national defense.

Libertarianism means the federal government does 1% of what it does now and the states, counties, cities & private people take on the rest because that ends up leading to more prosperity & wellbeing contrary to popular belief such as Summa's post.

Being mad & sad about how people are born inherently with inequality does NOT equate to the federal government must be powerful and take action - those two things do not logically equate. Dont pour gasoline on fires even if the gasoline is labeled fire extinguisher.

I am also for equality. Anyone with a normal brain is for equality and does not think darwinism is good & romantic. But you must not be fooled by things labeled as equality that are not equality, such as feminism, big government, and other trickery. We can only have full equality with ultra high technology that cures all disease and ends all need for money.

Here is a rule of the thumb tip, if something is collectivist or coercive it is bad and you are being fooled. if an Occupy Wallstreeter (OWSer) teenager or immature adult gives you a pamphlet, and it has politics in it that is collectivist or coercive, tell them they are being fooled & programmed and throw it out.

[Summa]

Alien invasion is disinformation put out by the dark controlled news media, and ExtraTerrestrials are good benevolent allies here to help us

Also, you forgot that libertarianism means the federal government is still responsible for the national defense.

Libertarianism means the federal government does 1% of what it does now and the states, counties, cities & private people take on the rest because that ends up leading to more prosperity & wellbeing contrary to popular belief such as Summa's post.

Being mad & sad about how people are born inherently with inequality does NOT equate to the federal government must be powerful and take action - those two things do not logically equate. Dont pour gasoline on fires even if the gasoline is labeled fire extinguisher.

I am also for equality. Anyone with a normal brain is for equality and does not think darwinism is good & romantic. But you must not be fooled by things labeled as equality that are not equality, such as feminism, big government, and other trickery. We can only have full equality with ultra high technology that cures all disease and ends all need for money.

Here is a rule of the thumb tip, if something is collectivist or coercive it is bad and you are being fooled. if an Occupy Wallstreeter (OWSer) teenager or immature adult gives you a pamphlet, and it has politics in it that is collectivist or coercive, tell them they are being fooled & programmed and throw it out.

This logic condones slavery.

[Jerome Scuggs]

This logic condones slavery.

as opposed to the status quo which doesn't?