Pro-life or pro-choice?

[Bioture]

I am going to add some substance to this bullshit. I may have wasted my time, but here goes. As a preface, I am a Christian and consider myself a libertarian.

I think abortion is a violation of human rights. I'm actually a little surprised that most progressives are so adamantly pro-abortion, as I think it's actually the next human rights hurdle that needs to be overcome. In Roman times, infantacide was common, because children were perceived to be property of their parents, without rights for themselves. Now, we recognize the personhood of children, and killing children is universally accepted as morally wrong. Two hundred years ago, slaves were considered as the property of their owners, and had no human rights. Killing a slave was merely just destroying something that you owned. Now, it's nearly universally accepted that those slaves were persons, and deserved their own human rights.

Which brings us to today. I understand the argument that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body and I agree with it, so long as it does not infringe on the basic human right of life of someone else. I know that all (if not most) pro-choice people out there do not consider a fetus as a human life, deserving of human rights (if so, I don't think you would be pro-choice!). However, 200 years ago, slave owners viewed slaves as sub-human, as did parents to children even longer before that. Slave owners would have objected that they should have the right to do what they wanted to their property.

Yes, I understand that infantacide, slavery, and abortion are all different issues, with different societal implications and cultural nuances. However, the point is that we see in history that society has progressed to recognize various "peoples/groups" to be persons deserving of human rights, and I think/hope that the same will be true for unborn babies. These changes come not only with legislation, but with a general shift in thinking. It goes much deeper than just politics to general worldview. Progressives have led us in the fight for human rights in so many different areas, and it is a little surprising to me (and a little sad) that for the most part, they aren't also fighting for human rights in the realm of abortion.

[gran guerrero]

Infanticide is where they killed a baby after it was born

Abortion is where they killed an embryo from becoming a baby before birth

apple and oranges

likewise, no mother should have an abortion in the third trimester

you can argue for the second trimester

but fighting for the first trimester is stupid, miscarriages happens more often than not in this stage that can be harmful to the mothers.

More likely than not if a woman wants an abortion it should be decided in the first trimester, waiting any longer than that shows that the mother doesn't want to give up her baby but if she ends up doing it too late then she's no better than a baby killer

[gran guerrero]

And I hate the argument that most religion ppl say that it's God's will.

Fuck you, like you know what God wants. Did you speak to God? Did God tell you personally?

What if it was God's will to create the idea of abortions? Perhaps it was God's will to make killing babies easier than going through infanticide, fuck I'm sure the people back then said killing their babies was God's will.

If all of life is God's will, then everything that is GOOD and BAD is GOD'S WILL. Fucking people want to sugarcoat God like God is all loving, you fucking Christians like to ignore your Old Testament like it never happened.

LETS BLAME THE DEVIL! Fuck you.

The Devil was God's creation, and it's God's will that the devil exists. If it was God's will to not have a fucking Devil, there'd be no fucking Devil.

God loves you, and hates you because people make it out to be that way. Let God's will tell you what God's will is, not some fucking person.

Good luck ever finding that out, because you will never know God unless you probably die. Perhaps it was God's will to bring back those babies to wherever death leads you too because God didn't want those babies living in this hell hole of a planet filled with fucking idiots.

[T3l Ca7]

I think abortion is a violation of human rights. I'm actually a little surprised that most progressives are so adamantly pro-abortion, as I think it's actually the next human rights hurdle that needs to be overcome. In Roman times, infantacide was common, because children were perceived to be property of their parents, without rights for themselves. Now, we recognize the personhood of children, and killing children is universally accepted as morally wrong. Two hundred years ago, slaves were considered as the property of their owners, and had no human rights. Killing a slave was merely just destroying something that you owned. Now, it's nearly universally accepted that those slaves were persons, and deserved their own human rights.

Which brings us to today. I understand the argument that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body and I agree with it, so long as it does not infringe on the basic human right of life of someone else. I know that all (if not most) pro-choice people out there do not consider a fetus as a human life, deserving of human rights (if so, I don't think you would be pro-choice!). However, 200 years ago, slave owners viewed slaves as sub-human, as did parents to children even longer before that. Slave owners would have objected that they should have the right to do what they wanted to their property.

Yes, I understand that infantacide, slavery, and abortion are all different issues, with different societal implications and cultural nuances. However, the point is that we see in history that society has progressed to recognize various "peoples/groups" to be persons deserving of human rights, and I think/hope that the same will be true for unborn babies. These changes come not only with legislation, but with a general shift in thinking. It goes much deeper than just politics to general worldview. Progressives have led us in the fight for human rights in so many different areas, and it is a little surprising to me (and a little sad) that for the most part, they aren't also fighting for human rights in the realm of abortion.

Personally I would never have an abortion. Though I have to admit there are women who have abortion because they are selfish, there are also women who have abortion because they trully concerned with the quality of life their unborn child would have.

Baby humans are not like baby lizards, they can not hit ground running. To bring a child to this world, parents need to provide more than just food and shelter. To properly raise a child, you need to also spend time with them, care for them, love them, provide them with education and basic life skills. If you can not provide this for at least 18 years after the birth of a child (assume it is an healthy child with no genetic disorder to start with), in my opinion, you should not have that child at all.

By not allowing an abortion, you might just bring misery to both the mother and the child.

[Bioture]

Personally I would never have an abortion. Though I have to admit there are women who have abortion because they are selfish, there are also women who have abortion because they trully concerned with the quality of life their unborn child would have.

Baby humans are not like baby lizards, they can not hit ground running. To bring a child to this world, parents need to provide more than just food and shelter. To properly raise a child, you need to also spend time with them, care for them, love them, provide them with education and basic life skills. If you can not provide this for at least 18 years after the birth of a child (assume it is an healthy child with no genetic disorder to start with), in my opinion, you should not have that child at all.

By not allowing an abortion, you might just bring misery to both the mother and the child.

I think that is a very selfish and narcissistic view of a child - period. How are "you" bringing misery to anything? Yes a child takes work. And someone took the time to work on you, right? Quite frankly, I never once touched whether or not we should "allow" abortion, because that is where the mess is. Who are you to allow an individual the right to choose?

As for properly raising a child, here's a giant fucking clue to all the idiot broads and chumps out there that can't support one: stop FUCKING EACH OTHER. Sex gets you pregnant. Children are a commitment. They cost money! They need things! But guess what - they don't just happen as if you stumbled into a trap or something. I didn't wake up this morning and "oh shit my wife is pregnant!"

Do you really think that 90% of abortions are all incest and rape? No, it's the other way around. People have irresponsible sex, then want to get away from the responsibility of having a child by killing it. How is this not a human rights issue? I work at the department of justice. Every year, they have a protest on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade right outside my office. This past Wednesday, they made a wonderful mess of things.

How about this: Educate yourself. Stop thinking that children are an inconvenience, because they're not. Stop believing that just because you have the right to an abortion, that you can act irresponsibly. Start thinking about how we can make the adoption process better - especially in the United States. Did you know it's easier to adopt overseas than it is to adopt stateside? How can we better the use of contraceptives, and better the education of our general populous? These are things we have to tackle. Not whether or not Roe v. Wade has any bearing on whether or not a fetus is a person. It has the potential to be, and that's enough to make it a serious human rights issue.

I'm done feeding the troll now.

[gran guerrero]

keep fucking

better solution

enforce laws requiring people to have a license if they want a child

[the_paul]

Bioture has said it the best. More than any right to privacy, most people want abortions to continue being allowed because it is a get out of jail free card. It's just another way of avoiding the necessity of taking any sort of accountability for your actions. And worrying about the child's quality of life, and therefore choosing to deny your child life, is an absolute copout. There are so many options available. I know here in the United States they have various safe places, fire stations and what not, that anyone can drop off a baby within 3 (?) days and they take it from there, no questions asked. I understand that foster homes and adoption agencies are not exactly ideal. But give me the choice between any option above, or not being born, and I'll take my chances on life anyday of the week.

[gran guerrero]

If I knew what I was being born into I'd choose death

[T3l Ca7]

How about this: Educate yourself. Stop thinking that children are an inconvenience, because they're not. Stop believing that just because you have the right to an abortion, that you can act irresponsibly. Start thinking about how we can make the adoption process better - especially in the United States. Did you know it's easier to adopt overseas than it is to adopt stateside? How can we better the use of contraceptives, and better the education of our general populous? These are things we have to tackle. Not whether or not Roe v. Wade has any bearing on whether or not a fetus is a person. It has the potential to be, and that's enough to make it a serious human rights issue.

I think you take the liberty to assume that all unwanted pregnancies are a result of women's one night standard and indiscretions. I guess it never crossed your mind a couple could break up not knowing the woman was pregnant - dad does not want to pay the child support and mother can not afford to have the baby alone.

It also did not cross your mind that the baby could have birth defect(s).

Of course, it does not matter to you if the woman's health is endangered if the pregnancy is continued.

So when do you plan to have your first adoption?

I understand that foster homes and adoption agencies are not exactly ideal. But give me the choice between any option above, or not being born, and I'll take my chances on life anyday of the week.

Are you adopted? Do you know what is like to feel unwanted by your dad and unwanted by your mum, not knowing who your real parents are and moving from one foster home to another?

I sure hope you and Bioture will never have pets, you are the kind that think it is okay to keep your pet until it becomes a 'inconvenience', then dump it somewhere thinking there are always people who are willing to take your unwanted pet in.

There are nearly 7 billion people on this earth, thousands of children are starving to death everyday. There are plenty of children who need help. So don't make women who do not want to go through with pregnancies, go through them.

[Bioture]

I think you take the liberty to assume that all unwanted pregnancies are a result of women's one night standard and indiscretions. I guess it never crossed your mind a couple could break up not knowing the woman was pregnant - dad does not want to pay the child support and mother can not afford to have the baby alone.

It also did not cross your mind that the baby could have birth defect(s).

Of course, it does not matter to you if the woman's health is endangered if the pregnancy is continued.

So when do you plan to have your first adoption?

Look up how many abortions are had because of defects, danger to the mother, or in cases of rape and incest. Compare them to abortions because a woman does not want the responsibility of a child. Actually here, I'll do it for you. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html

Consider that I never said we should ban abortions across the board. I explicitly said I am both pro-choice and pro-life, but I am arguing this as a human rights issue. I never said abortions should not be accessible in very extreme circumstances, where there is incest, rape, or in cases where there are extreme health concerns. If you can't understand that I'm not taking the traditional, bible-thumping viewpoint, then my reasons are lost on you.

You should also consider the fact that since I am also pro-choice, I believe people SHOULD be able to choose. The problem is if we're making this a human rights issue, a baby cannot choose. In essence, you're saying that we should take away a baby's right to choose (not that it can in a coherent sense) so that a woman's right to choose is ultimate. Unfortunately, there are more idiots out there than not. If you can't choose to act responsibly, what right do you have to choose whether or not a baby lives or dies? The majority of abortions happen outside of wedlock because people CHOOSE to act irresponsibly.

How about this - I'll support your right to choose an abortion for an unwanted baby, if you can choose to be responsible?



Edit: I think my wife and I always thought that we would adopt our second or third child. My aunt-in-law has 5 adopted children (all of them with disabilities, either autism or crack baby) and is possibly the most amazing woman I know. All her kids as they grow up, cope with their disabilities. 4 of them are on their way to college.

The question isn't IF people are WILLING to adopt, they are. The question is whether or not the process can be done easily. Not everyone views a baby as a burden like you do.

[Supreme]

Im just messing with you here for the most part but: if I jack-off am I not aborting several million little babies?!

[Bioture]

Yes. A typical human male aborts at least 10 times the human population (70 billion!) in babies during their lifetimes. Could be more if you work in the porn industry.

[T3l Ca7]

Look up how many abortions are had because of defects, danger to the mother, or in cases of rape and incest. Compare them to abortions because a woman does not want the responsibility of a child. Actually here, I'll do it for you. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/poli...abreasons.html

Consider that I never said we should ban abortions across the board. I explicitly said I am both pro-choice and pro-life, but I am arguing this as a human rights issue. I never said abortions should not be accessible in very extreme circumstances, where there is incest, rape, or in cases where there are extreme health concerns. If you can't understand that I'm not taking the traditional, bible-thumping viewpoint, then my reasons are lost on you.

You should also consider the fact that since I am also pro-choice, I believe people SHOULD be able to choose. The problem is if we're making this a human rights issue, a baby cannot choose. In essence, you're saying that we should take away a baby's right to choose (not that it can in a coherent sense) so that a woman's right to choose is ultimate. Unfortunately, there are more idiots out there than not. If you can't choose to act responsibly, what right do you have to choose whether or not a baby lives or dies? The majority of abortions happen outside of wedlock because people CHOOSE to act irresponsibly.

How about this - I'll support your right to choose an abortion for an unwanted baby, if you can choose to be responsible?



Edit: I think my wife and I always thought that we would adopt our second or third child. My aunt-in-law has 5 adopted children (all of them with disabilities, either autism or crack baby) and is possibly the most amazing woman I know. All her kids as they grow up, cope with their disabilities. 4 of them are on their way to college.

The question isn't IF people are WILLING to adopt, they are. The question is whether or not the process can be done easily. Not everyone views a baby as a burden like you do.

I agree, people need to be responsible for their actions. I don't see babies as burdens, I see them as responsibilities - if you don't want get pregnant, don't have unprotected sex.

Although out of curiosity, if your 15 year old daughter who is in high school gets pregnant, will you encourage her to go ahead and have the baby?

[Bioture]

Although out of curiosity, if your 15 year old daughter who is in high school gets pregnant, will you encourage her to go ahead and have the baby?

The realistic short answer is that my daughter would never be that stupid.

But as a hypothetical question, I would involve the father and his family. I'd tell my daughter that her life isn't over with a baby. So in essence, yes I would. If she was dumb enough to get into the situation and needs help getting out of it, we have to handle the situation responsibly. Which means sucking it up and dealing with it, instead of aborting the baby and calling it a day.

[Supreme]

Yes. A typical human male aborts at least 10 times the human population (70 billion!) in babies during their lifetimes. Could be more if you work in the porn industry.

No no, I try