Obamacare

[Jerome Scuggs]

Once again I am sorry but can you point out which, if any of those points makes a compelling case against the ACA?

I don't see any reasons within your post which suggest Obamacare is going to cause problems or any sort of doomsday scenario. The closest you get to really making an argument is point #4, which is something about birth control being factored into insurance costs. You don't really explain how or why this is bad (and also leave out that these costs are recouped by the consumer anyways) and if birth control hidden costs are so bad, what about the factored-in costs to pay for actuaries? Since it's a huge profession (#1 by your own admission) I am sure actuaries are more of a burden on hidden costs than any part of the ACA.

[Ephemeral]

Jerome
Why do people called this the Affordable Care Act? The same reason they called it the Social Security Act in 1935. It is a fucking tax, period. But somehow Washington thinks that calling these pieces of a social welfare legislation ‘acts’ will fool us into thinking they are not going to cost money and help them get re-elected. Did we really need the Federal government taking our money and using it only so they can give it back to us when we reach old age? Do we really need the morons in Washington controlling 20% of the US economy (percentage of the economy that is health care)?

Of course the Republicans are throwing up road blocks to this kind of legislation. How fucking stupid would a person have to be to think that they were not going to do this? (In fact many people in this very forum predicted that this is exactly what would happen back when the country stupidly elected this president and this congress. Happened the first time around so what did we think would change this time? The economy was in limbo the first four years and people believed that it was just that things were bad from the Bush admin. It was that business/companies/consumers had zero confidence in Washington. Somehow we thought putting back in the same power struggle would work better this time? Perhaps that Obama had taken some leadership classes? Or that the Republican right was going to stop being dickheads? Really? Just how stupid can we be?

We don’t want to think about if a person is wealthy they will be able to get better heath care and/or live longer. Somehow we want to magically assure everyone the same level of healthcare; BUT only within our borders??? Why stop at our borders? Why not give our money and resources to people living anywhere? I don’t understand how people can have a bleeding heart based only on mileage. What is that called; ‘locational ethics and morals’?

Do we need better health care laws? Without a doubt. There certainly needed to be a law that made insurance companies cover people with pre-existing conditions. And obviously there are reforms needed to address the way insurance companies are managed (state by state as opposed at the national level). But why not try those reforms (allowing free market to work and allow consumers to make their own decisions) before allowing Washington put their fingers in this pie? What? We thought that the politicians were going to do a good job with this?

But frankly Washington is not the issue; this is an ‘American people are idiots’ issue. We elected these fools, we don’t care that we have more people working in the Department of Agriculture than we have farmers in this country. We somehow think that Washington can simply step in and assure good health care reform for all without a bill coming due. LOL Mark my words, the country has just seen the tip of this cost iceberg. Politicians will always be politicians and do what is in their best interest (to be re-elected) and stick the bill to everyone else (now or future generations). Of course it will work because we are idiots. We are the same idiots who run out and buy lottery tickets thinking we might win. The same idiots who want to think that it is ok to play the lottery because their state calls it the ‘educational lottery’ and think the proceeds go to the schools. (Apparently they don’t care they their state never added to the education funding, they simply removed the original funding the school systems and replaced it with lottery funded money. LOL @ the stupidity). Yeah, you younger people keep thinking that you will be able to get your social security when you hit 64. LOL here is link to the Social Security tax you are paying and how they will continue to fuck you over http://www.socialsecurity.gov/retire2/agereduction.htm. They will keep ‘tweaking’ both the age you can first qualify and the percentages that you get. Compare this to the original 1935 promises.

There is one simple answer. A grassroots uprising of voters who simply ALWAYS vote out the incumbents. No matter what the office, no matter if it’s a Democrat or Republican; do not let these guys make a career out of being a politician. Eventually they will realize that they have one term to serve the country and then they go get a real job. In my opinion if this were to happen then we wouldn’t have these kinds of taxes and moronic pieces of legislation.
eph

[Jerome Scuggs]

Eph,

I agree- taxation is theft and laws suck. I too am an anarchist. However Do you have anything to say about the ACA- for instance, how will the state run exchanges negatively affect insurance rates?

Edit: let me explain why I am being obtuse about this. I am very aware of the points you are making. In fact, you might even remember Epinephrine and I's super-long thread where we covered just about every level (physical, metaphysical, epistemelogical) of the private vs. public healthcare debate.

That being said, there is a very real and very subversive element of the GOP that is opposing Obamacare for reasons unknown to me. Maybe their lobbyists hate it, maybe their corporate friends will lose money... I don't know. What I do know is the GOP could have thrown up this sort of resistance at any time within the past CENTURY and we wouldn't be where we are now, debating over a horribly mismanaged, not-socialist, not-capitalist labyrinth that is "American Healthcare".

The current rhetoric I am seeing from major Republican figures and pundits is a generic, blanket-case rejection of government intervention. Instead of using facts about Obamacare to dismantle Obamacare, they are using rhetoric that might be more relevant at an anarchists' convention - railing against taxation, tyranny, over-regulation, privacy concerns, etc.

Yet none of it is specific to the Affordable Care Act. Obamacare costs money? So does our defense budget, so did the PATRIOT Act, and FISA and CISPA and a multitude of other laws and acts which are far more of a threat to American democracy, our economy, and rule of law than Obamacare. Obamacare wouldn't be able to go this far, without having first been given a foundation by the hundreds of other laws that the GOP should have stood up and fought against. Why didn't they?

In short - I don't trust it. It doesn't seem like a genuine reaction against Obamacare, but rather a concerted, specific attempt to get it undone for some unspecified reason which only some upper-echelon GOP figures might truly know. They wrap it up in libertarian rhetoric and let the GOP base rail against it with these vague arguments such as "it's tyranny!" and "it's expensive!". Yet there's no specifics, no details on the internals of Obamacare - just broad, sweeping statements. As a debater, that's just not how you present an argument. As an anarchist, it's the perfect argument to make - if you're willing to torch the entire government, democrats and republicans, and start over.

[gran guerrero]

bababooey bababooey Howard Stern's pnus!

[Ephemeral]

Jerome,
I think the Republican Right has been pretty transparent in their objections, they see this as an socialist attempt to redistribute wealth. Something that is quite anti-American to their way of thinking. To my way of thinking this is consistent with their perspective of having capitalism as THE answer to all of society’s woes.
Frankly I am sick or the same tired Democrat vs. Republican debate and think that the two party system comes nowhere close to reflecting the true, complex nature of our society and its issues. The right, the left…it doesn’t matter. Look at Obama, a guy who is supposed to be left yet has sat for 7 years supporting the NSA and its activities.
My opinion is that neither party has the answers, both are full of people who put themselves and their self interests ahead of what is good for the country, and neither has anyone who even resembles a ’leader’ in any sense of the word. In fact I would elect the Pope over anyone currently in either party, at least this guy has his priorities straight.
eph

[kthx]

You should have never gone to college Jerome.

The whole point of this bill was to destroy privatized insurance and to get everyone on the government dole for health insurance. Its harder to bite the hand that "feeds" you, so the more people dependent on the entity that gives them food, money, insurance the harder it is to revolt against them as freedom is destroyed. Despite America's ridiculous cost of health insurance we also have the best healthcare in the world, world leaders from every other country come to America to get treated and to get surgery. You are basically arguing for the furthered destruction of the middle class as there will eventually be the government cheese insurance where you will end up seeing the garbage doctors and getting the lower grade care, (see the VA or just Izor about it) and then there will be the elite who will still receive the wonderful healthcare that we have come to expect from our physicians.

[kthx]

Actually lets try it this way.

Lets say you have health insurance at your job you've worked at for 5 years and then get pretty sick. You have already paid the cost to cover the medical expenses by paying a small amount every month in insurance. The insurance company can sit there and pay you out and not have lost much if any money. Some people won't get sick and they will make the company money, or some people will let their coverage lapse and they will make some money like that. They have to make money to pay their employees.

Now imagine you don't have insurance and you get cancer, and now the company is forced to give you health coverage under the new law. Sure its great for that one person but this guy has paid in no money, its a complete loss, how can a company stay in business when people can just break an arm and then get insurance and can't be denied, then stop paying the next month.

Now imagine the goal is for the insurance companies to not be around anymore so the government is forced to save America with its own health insurance plan which willl be paid for by taxpayers as a tax, which means they get all that money instead of a private company. I am sure that sounds fairly familiar.

[roxxkatt]

Despite America's ridiculous cost of health insurance we also have the best healthcare in the world,.

#1 in costs, #27 in quality and performance

[roxxkatt]

yep, taxes are designed to enslave you, america

wake up, sheeple

[kthx]

Pretty sure John Hopkins is the most respected hospital in the world, here in Texas we have the worlds best cancer care and research. We have the best research, hospitals, and doctors in the world because they are able to make money here. That is why people with money from other countries come here for treatment, cancer care, and surgeries while they leave you guys with the second rate treatments. Enjoy.

[roxxkatt]

easy to think you are the best when you ignore everything else that exists
but havnt we seen that mentality before

[Jerome Scuggs]

Kthx - your example sucks but let's pretend the example happens a year from now. Except by then all the uninsured people have insurance and have been paying into it.

Also if a business goes under because one uninsured dude gets cancer, then by Cold Republican Logic (CRL) they weren't profitable and should have failed anyways, amirite?

[Ephemeral]

So for years 47 million+ people have been without medical care. This includes those who have pre-existing conditions, those who have been ‘putting off’ medical care, and those who are currently healthy but are angry about paying for insurance when they did not previously have the expense (meaning they will seek medical care just because they feel like they are now paying for it).

Now all of these people will suddenly be leaning on the health care system; seeking medical care. That’s 47 million people flooding into the already over-burdened health care system. Has anyone heard a single word about the preparations to handle this influx? Does anyone think for a second that the over status of the health care system is not going to be negatively impacted? I guess the plan is the same as the web site; ‘we will just cross that bridge when we get there’? LOL

And keep in mind that the Obamacare tax does not mean that anyone is going to pay their share when the huge hospital bills come in months later. This isn’t ‘free’ health care by any stretch of the imagination. The deductibles an easily reach into the many thousands of dollars per year in additional cost (beyond what you pay for the insurance coverage).

So let’s consider a ‘before and after’ Obamacare situation using a family that is struggling, basically living pay check to pay check.
Before Obamacare if they had a medical emergency they would have no insurance but could go into an emergency room and be treated. The family looks at the $8500 bill but has no chance of paying for; it goes unpaid and the rest of society would end up paying via increased costs.
After Obamacare the family loses 10% of their monthly income as the Obamacare tax is removed from their paycheck. They have a medical emergency and end up with a $8500 bill; the deductible is $2500. How will they pay that? They have already choked down the monthly loss of income. Does having a $8500 bill you can’t pay differ much than having a $2500 bill you can’t pay? So where are the predictions on just how much the total amount of defaulted medical costs will be lowered when all this goes into effect? Where are the ‘leaders’ who are willing to stand up now and make prediction on how much medical costs will be lowered for everyone once the current level of defaulted medical bills are reduced? Those who shoved this crap down our throats should have the balls to firmly commit to the ‘savings’ that they currently only loosely mention.

There is no free lunch. The ‘cold’ facts here is that medical care is a rich persons game. The richer you are the better medical care you can get and the longer you will live. While it might be fun to think that we can somehow level this playing field the truth is that we cannot. Capitalism, just like the rules of nature (survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc.) can be cold and cruel. The politicians in Washington love dumbass general public who are willing to turn over their tax dollars for them to play with; allow them to feel good about themselves like they are saving us from ourselves.

So the plan is to grossly overspend on the broken lame-ass web site to sign everyone up. Have no planning at all that anticipates the huge influx of new people flooding into the health care system. Avoid talking about that even after Obamacare is in effect millions of people will still be defaulting on medical bills. But hey, let Washington convince us that they have out best interests in mind so they can put themselves back into office for another term.
Yeah, that sounds like it will work out just fine.
eph

[Jerome Scuggs]

Eph,

What I keep seeing is how we're glazing over these huge issues as if they are small things. In your post you casually refer to our 46 million uninsured, our over-burdened healthcare system, and an 8500 medical bill.

Let's say Obamacare fails. In that case you are right- our problems will be exacerbated. In that case, maybe the door will open for a discussion about the state of our healthcare system and ideas for real and complete reform. Strike it down, and the systemic, underlying problems remain and we ignore them for another few years.

Let's say it works. In that case we've found a stopgap to at least mitigate our massive population of uninsured, and make it easier for future applicants with pre-existing conditions to obtain insurance.

The only MAJOR problem with Obamacare is, in my opinion, that it will cement permanently the idea of shifting costs of care onto businesses. This is a major flaw, the result of stopgap legislation decades ago that set the precedent. Pragmatically speaking the only solution here is a single-payer system, the only other alternative being anarchism. (Any criticism you make of the single-payer system will require a criticism of government itself, fiat money, etc: basically the entire framework of modern society).

[Ephemeral]

jerome,
I don’t understand the ‘shifting of costs’ to businesses. Everyone seems to think that ‘companies’ are some sort of entity that exists without us. No business simply absorbs costs, Every time some moron returns something to your local retail business because he made a bad decision, all the other customers pay for his mistake. Ditto with insurance companies. Every hear of an insurance company going out of business? It is simply a statistical number game for them. Metrics and formulas are developed that tell them exactly how many claims they will have to honor and how many people will pay into a pool without making any claims. They know exactly how much they have to charge and the percentage margin they will earn. They did not go into this blindfolded or not knowing exactly what it means to them to bring the uninsured/bad risk people on-board ad still make money for their shareholders. They negotiated all of this with the Obama administration and the HHS 2-3 years ago.

You can take this to the bank. No insurance company is going to lose money, lower margins, or somehow simply find cash to cover the new costs. There is no hidden pot of gold that anyone will be using to 'give' affordable health care to anyone. The US economy is like a giant Monopoly game, the amount of money stays the same, it simply moves among the players and the bank. (Well, not really true since the Feds can always just print more money. But that simply raises inflation and defers the cost to another day sometime in the future.)
There is no free lunch, every cost is going to be passed on to either the consumers or the tax payers (i.e all of us). Every dime of it.
eph