TW Remembers those we've lost

[Awesome]

Originally posted by dimboy2
-The World as a 13 year old sees it.
-Dimboy

Put this in all your threads

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

The British are unfairly occupying the Falkland Islands! They should be spending more resources on international aid!

See how ridiculous that sounds? Most every developed country has at least one issue that can be over-analyzed.

[ZeUs!!]

Thats only because they don't want us to leave though

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Stop oppressing Northern Ireland, you Imperialist pig-dogs!

[Vehicle]

OK conc, granted Afganistan was needed, what about Iraq? Since you seem to be pretty pro-bush, I would really like to read your rationilization for sending people to die in a country in order to fight terrorism two countries over. And then promising we were just going to give them a government and leave, then we take over and decide, fuck it, we will stay for well over 10 years.

[Fit of Rage]

Originally posted by ConcreteSchlyrd
Stop oppressing Northern Ireland, you Imperialist pig-dogs!

Conc, mentor me?

[Troll King]

Originally posted by Under Dog
OK conc, granted Afganistan was needed, what about Iraq? Since you seem to be pretty pro-bush, I would really like to read your rationilization for sending people to die in a country in order to fight terrorism two countries over. And then promising we were just going to give them a government and leave, then we take over and decide, fuck it, we will stay for well over 10 years.

So did you only catch the end of the sentence "Come on. I'm not a fan of GW or the Bush Doctrine, but you've gotta say this--Afghanistan was fairly necessary"?

Even if he didn't state that, it is unfair to assume that if he supported one decision the Bush admin made that he supported them all. That's the same kind of binary thinking that Bush critics accuse him of.

[ZeUs!!]

Originally posted by ConcreteSchlyrd
Stop oppressing Northern Ireland, you Imperialist pig-dogs!

Half of them want us to go and half of them want us to leave, so whatever we do we're going to upset the other half. We can't win! One lot blows the shit out of the other and the other lot dresses in orange walks in an arrogant fashion.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

First things first--this conversation has kinda swayed the focus of this thread (in a good way, towards the intelligent).

Moved to General Discussion. - Conc

Like MacArthur, I shall return.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Okay, first of all, thanks TK for pointing out something that I evidently should have put in bold. It seems careful reading comprehension is something that gets tossed aside sometimes.

Second, I don't think that going into Iraq was a good idea. I've never bought the rhetoric surrounding our supposed reasons to go in, and don't buy into all the nationalistic bullshit that's come along with it. I don't hate the French. I don't hate the Germans. I don't condone the use of the term "Freedom Fries," nor do I have a "Fuck the French" bumper sticker.

However, the decision whether it was a good idea to go in or not is pretty much rendered moot at this point. We're already there. All the 20/20 "we should've done this" or "you shouldn't have done that" will remain as a footnote to history, but probably nothing more. What people seem to forget is that rebuilding a country is a time-consuming task. After WWII, the Allies occupied Japan for nearly seven years (August 1945-April 1952). I don't care how much money you throw behind it, and how many private contractors you have working on it, rebuilding an entire country's infrastructure is a daunting task to say the least. And that's not even taking into account the people trying to undo your work. Yes, some Iraqis don't want us there at all, but there are still a lot that actually do. What would happen if we just pulled everything out now? The old regime walks back into power, the power vacuum seals back up, and everyone who was a "US/UK sympathizer" is dragged out into the streets and shot (or even worse). It happened when we bailed out of the first Gulf War, and you better believe it would happen again. And then, the half of the people that wanted you there are now sour at you as well. The sentiments are similar to Zeus' comments about NI--"Half of them want us to stay and half of them want us to leave, so whatever we do we're going to upset the other half."

Now, as for people complaining about civilian deaths. It's horrible, I agree. On the other hand, though, it was a war. And in war, people die. Just because we haven't had a large-scale conflict in recent history, people forget the fact that collateral damage does indeed happen during massive armed conflicts. And believe me, the actual collateral damage caused during any recent war PALES in comparison to any major war preceding it. With the advent of "smart" weapons and non-or-less-lethal ammunition, as well as policy refinements in the US military, the number of killed non-combatants during conflicts has fallen steeply. It may seem like I'm taking a stone-hearted view on the whole thing, but I'm tired of people trying to use numbers as a reason that we should leave Iraq right away. "Oh my! 294 US soldiers have died since fighting began! We should just pack up our toys and go home!" More than 47 thousand US servicemen died in Vietnam (not to mention an estimated 223 thousand ARVN soldiers and countless numbers of innocent civilians). Not that Vietnam is a good comparison, but for aggregate numbers lost, it'll do.

The point is, you can't just casually roll into a country militarily, depose a dictator, and then just roll out again. It'd be nice if it worked that way, but it just doesn't. I'd like to be out of there as soon as possible as much as any person, but you can't just pick up and leave without giving the people a means of protecting themselves.

EDIT - Added in kickass link to a really interesting website built and maintained by my friend James. He's super-bright about world history--I gaurantee you'll learn at least one interesting piece of history at his site.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

Originally posted by ZeUs!!
Half of them want us to go and half of them want us to leave, so whatever we do we're going to upset the other half. We can't win! One lot blows the shit out of the other and the other lot dresses in orange walks in an arrogant fashion.

RogerMexico ate dinner with Martin McGuinness during his stint of study in Ireland a year ago. Supposedly, it was pretty crazy.

[Material Girl]

Is it true that Frida Kahlo fucked Leo Trotsky?
My personal favorite was the dance scene.....

[Tigerex]

Trench Wars Players> I think my stupid infantile opinions mean something when in reality they mean shit all so i should just stfu thinking i know all the possible reasons and motivations for war/death/conflict. I know the meaning of life and through rigorous forum flame battles i feel things can actually be worked out, world peace obtained and people will agree with me.

Listen to yourselves
Listen to me
Don't Speak

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

I disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with people speaking their minds on current events. In fact, I'd say that this is a great way for people to become more informed.

No one here is claiming to be able to change the world singlehandedly, but it never hurts to have a healthy exchange of ideas.

[froedrick]

A lot of people in africa who die from HIV have themeselves to blame.