Heavensent

[Cops]

Originally posted by ÆNIMA
Cops - Heaven's talking about the 2nd Coming, that hasn't happened yet.

That's still offensive, whatever you're religion is you don't tell another that'll they'll burst into flames. Aren't you suppouse to be in Russia right now aenima?

[Ivan]

Just close this topic for God sakes

[apt]

I have nothing to argue back with, I haven't read the bible since I was like 6. Even though I have gone through Baptism, Communium and Confirmation, God is non existant. The only reason it seems any of you believe in an omnipotent being is because the people before you have, and so have the people before they. The thing that needs to be taken out of everyones head is there is no superior law or force or being. By giving into the idea of Superior and Inferiorioty you are demeaning your own existence. There is no twoness or opposites, There is no such thing as Evil and Good, Hell and Heaven, these are primitive ways of thinking. These things seem to define all religion, each one cannot be defined without an oppiste or a beggining and end or a cause and effect. Cause is effect and effect is cause; they're not two!

Take the problem of free will: This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle and 350 B.C. Saint Augustine Saint Thomas Aquinas - these guys all worried about how we can be free if God already knows in advance everything you're gonna do. Why would anyone want to live in a world, or believe that every action or thought they put into place was not an act of free will, but a script already written. You can only be held responsible, you can only be found guilty, you can only be admired or respected, for things you did of your own free will. Now if God is the one planning all of this out, how are we to be deemed sinners or not. If God predetermned everything, or even if he is just omniscient, this means that he already knows everything you will ever do. If this is true, then how is it possible for you to have free will? There is really no way around it. All you are is a chracter in a re-run that God has already seen.

It has been said that man is cursed because he knows about eternity; and that he invented time to demsystify what he is afraid of. It is man's basic instinct to fear anything that is strange. Therefore early man attempted to explain most things in nature in a human way. The human quality can be even seen today. We refer to "Father Time", the "Hands of Time", and "Only time will tell". It almost seems as though man has made time into some sort of "god". We even have graven images that portray time on our walls and our wrists. The abstraction of time allows man to have a sense of determining his "eternity". "In five minutes I will call her", "next year I will go to college". When we say "that took two minutes", we are only implyig that the event reminded us of what we remember two minutes to be.

So if it is only in our memories, then does it really exist? Is it just a figment of our imagination? And if so, isn't it incredible that so many people have the same concept int heir imagination? And, if everyone imagines the same thing, then does that make it real?
The idea of a force acting without our knowledge of it explained natural occurences. The Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, Romans, all created Gods to define what they could not explain. And those Gods would be the ones that created everything their was. From their evolved more substantial simplified religions. Which focused closely to one idea and a more basic practice.

Now God does exist, he is very real. But not in the way that the Bible tells you. By believing he is real and by speaking his name, and just the very thought, makes him real. Just as real as lets say, an OCD patient believes he has to enter his car a certain way for his day to go right. Now hey, everyone needs an idea or goal to set aside, that keeps them going. Without that, then you are non existant. Every thought is another goal or another reason for you to continue. So if you want to go and believe fairytales about a mystical place waiting for you if you do "good" things, then go for it. But I am just trying to understand how people can so easily succumb to the idea that because a book says something is the way it is, everyone has to go and believe it. And the moment something comes in contradiction against the bibles teachings, it is denied by all of its followers. To me it appears as if Christians are just struggling for something to hang on to, because without something to believe in their life becomes worthless. To me it sounds like faith is more of a fear of what may not be there or waiting for them on the other side. So you delude yourself, trick yourself, make up stories and games in your mind so that you may believe and avoid the truth that is starting you in the face. So you hope inside, that it is true, and you can continue with your life believing false premises, and you will one day be rewarded for that. The only rewards you will ever recieve are the ones you do for yourself.

Most of us spend our lives as if we're waiting for something to happen. We need to realize that something is happening. We are alive now. -" Let the rain come pouring and wash out this tired notion that the best is yet to come".

For I do not await the future, anticipating salvation, absolution, not even enlightenment through process. I subscribe to the premise that this flawed perfection is sufficient and complete in every single, ineffable moment. Chrisitans live their lives living it for someone else because, they were told thats the way it was. Live for yourself, there are no rules to follow, by being told you have to follow certain rules to achieve a certain lifestyle is rediciulous. You're limiting free will and thought, instead of being human you might as well be a Sim Character in someones game. I see no difference.

Toss your fucking bible, it's worthless.

[Ivan]

Apt sounds....:eek:

Let's just close this before apt vs heavensent WW7 begins

[ÆNIMA]

Originally posted by Taciturn Bob
some rediculously old book full of stories from opium smoking hippies

You have no proof of this, so it's your opinion. And opinions are beliefs.

[Jerome Scuggs]

yes, they were definitely hippies. Moses prophecized and then protested the vietnam war, duuuhhh.

[PUNK rock]

Originally posted by apt
The Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, Romans, all created Gods to define what they could not explain. And those Gods would be the ones that created everything their was.

Very good point and true. Medival Christians held this to be very true. Many discoveries that happened after the advances of the Greeks and Romans was believed to be heresy (Earth wasn't the center of the universe, the heart makes your blood go through your body, etc.)

Originally posted by apt
Live for yourself, there are no rules to follow, by being told you have to follow certain rules to achieve a certain lifestyle is rediciulous.

Being at a private, Christian affliated college, I see this everyday. There are countless numbers of students who do nothing a "normal" college student wouldn't do (date, drink, etc.) simply because they don't think God or Jesus would "approve" of it.

I happen to not be be one of these people and sometimes it drives me a bit insane when they tell me their "logic". One example being a 8 hour prayer gathering. Seriously, what can you pray for, for 8 hours??

My roommate was one of these hardcore-Christians when we first came to school. Slowly I corrupted him with my stories of partying and the like. Now he's much different, still goes to church etc., but the point is that he enjoys life much more than he did before.

This is just my opinion and examples from my experiences. I personally don't think I know enough to argue in great detail (nor do I care to anyways). I think people should believe in whatever makes them happy, as long as they don't impede my beliefs and rights.

P.S. apt4god

[Bioture]

All seriousness aside, I somehow still believe that Christianity can save my family and friends. But not me however, no, I'm already halfway into the forest.

[iLDuce]

HAY GUYS! WHO STARTED TEH BIG BANG?

[Ivan]

ME

[ÆNIMA]

Originally posted by apt
The only reason it seems any of you believe in an omnipotent being is because the people before you have, and so have the people before they.

That's pretty well not true. Most of your "hardcore" believers took the time to found out for themselves. How did they do that you ask? Well I'll tell you that they didn't go around asking other people if it's true. They get on their knees and ask, with real intent. I know you're thinking it's silly, but that's what faith is all about.

Besides, when someone says "There is no God because of this, this, and this," they are just as incorrect as someone saying "There is a God because of this, this, and this." There's no concrete evidence either way. It is a fact, however, that the one side uses logic and factual history for their argument, while the other uses personal experience and ancient text for theirs.

But in neither of those arguments is concrete proof. And you're more correct in saying "I don't know, because there is no proof either way."

[syzygy]

Originally posted by apt
Even though I have gone through Baptism, Communium and Confirmation, God is non existant. The only reason it seems any of you believe in an omnipotent being is because the people before you have, and so have the people before they.

to believe in God (and Jesus) is a choice made by the person. one cannot be born again by following the influences of "the people before you."

Originally posted by apt
If God predetermned everything, or even if he is just omniscient, this means that he already knows everything you will ever do. If this is true, then how is it possible for you to have free will?

here's a fun topic: free will and fate are co-existent. let's say you have a choice to open one of two doors. God knows which one you'll open, but you don't. and so long as you don't know which, you still have that choice.

Originally posted by apt
The Greeks, Egyptians, Mayans, Romans, all created Gods to define what they could not explain. And those Gods would be the ones that created everything their was.

gods*

Originally posted by apt
Now God does exist, he is very real. But not in the way that the Bible tells you.

how does the Bible perceive God? it seems just as acceptable the biblical way as the modern way.

Originally posted by apt
Live for yourself, there are no rules to follow, by being told you have to follow certain rules to achieve a certain lifestyle is rediciulous.

nowhere in the Bible does it say that one must attain a good lifestyle (by following rules and doing good works) to go to heaven. i agree, that is ridiculous.

Originally posted by apt
...instead of being human you might as well be a Sim Character in someones game. I see no difference.

so Will Wright did have a motive...

Originally posted by apt
Toss your *censored* bible, it's worthless.

might as well toss your life, too, being equally worthless and all.

[ÆNIMA]

Originally posted by Taciturn Bob
By that logic, every person should be Agnostic.

It would be a fallacy to think otherwise. Can't you see that's what I was pointing out? But that obviously doesn't mean everyone's going to conform.

[Liquid Blue]

Originally posted by Bioture
All seriousness aside, I somehow still believe that Christianity can save my family and friends. But not me however, no, I'm already halfway into the forest.

..of doom?

[Ivan]

Yes