In Testing: When only one freq has a shark, reduce mine alive time

[qan]

We're currently testing a new feature in Pub. Feedback is appreciated!

Problem: Sharks mine-block entrances to FR even when they're the only shark. This leaves the other team with the choice of doing nothing, ramming the mines (which can quickly be replaced by a decent shark) or switching to shark (or weasel). In many or even most cases, teams will not coordinate with their team to ram mines, and few elect to change to shark. The normal course of action here is to do nothing, and instead focus on making any kills they can outside the FR. This causes games to die down due to lack of any real competition. It's been a recognized a problem for years, with no good solution. Most players have grown accustomed to its negative impact and have settled for just living with it, insulting the shark, or pointing fingers at teammates for not changing to shark while also not changing themselves.

Attempted solution: When there's not a shark on both freq 0 and freq 1 (either one shark on 0 or 1, or one or more sharks on private freqs), mine alive time has been reduced to 35 seconds (updated 5/23; previous value 20s). Otherwise, mine time is the usual 2.5 minutes. This rule is currently in effect for 6v6 (updated 5/23; previous value 7v7) and smaller games.

Intention: If players are mineblocking while there are no sharks on the other team to clear them, they'll need to be refreshing their mines regularly in order to keep up the game-killing effect. They'll also need to put themselves at risk far more often to do so.

Criticism: This significantly changes the feel of the solo shark (though this kind of shark, the laming/mineblocking shark with no real counter, is not represented in any other arena). It may cause fewer people to play shark, because it's less enjoyable to solo and wait around for an opposing shark to join in order to increase the mine time back to normal. It may also increase the strength of aggressive vet sharks who thrust-mine/rep by allowing them to have a mine almost always available.

Adjustment points: Mine alive time; player threshold; or disable entirely (and either replace with something else, or accept that this poor sportsmanship has gone on for such a long time that it's just part of the game)

[Rab]

I just played a couple of rounds as the troll shark and was able to hold a complete shutout on my own. I just had to lay mines more often than usual, but the outcome is the same. I completely wrecked the game, now I feel bad.

[Leland]

I think if you kill a shark all his current mines should disappear too

[the_paul]

I think if you kill a shark all his current mines should disappear too

What? Fuck no

[alanon]

I think this is a horrible idea. It's like outlawing "rock" in paper rock scissors because people don't want to throw paper.

Sharks balance the team. I would cut weasels hiding from radar long before cutting a shark.

If players don't want to rep bombs in their way, then they're not really playing to win they're just playing to have fun in their favorite ships.

When I shark 1v1 I don't mine block because I lose my advantage as soon as another shark joins. Instead, I just mine to make the entrance inconvenient. People who mine block are short lived and hunted by spiders anyway, at least by anyone who cares to actually win.

But what do I know, I've just been playing this game for the same rules for twenty years and some recent grumbling from noobs who don't want to make the effort of reaching their pinkies across the screen and pressing esc+8 should definitely trump my opinion and the opinion of other vets who actually sustain this game.

BTW, thanks for just implementing your wishes instead of taking a vote. Now the only recourse I can see is to use every remaining legal cheap move (baseterr+shields, supers, thors, shrap, bricks) to hunt down those noobs to make it as UNfun for them as possible. I'll burn through my 53 million as fast as possible and then start taking up a donation. I'll be checking play time to see whose new and hunting them in x again and again. Hey, these are legal things right? Eff only those people who like sharking, right?

This is an insult. I haven't been insulted like this since the great bux reset of '13 and if you guys gave two shits about your players you'd take a vote or something before implementing dumb changes that make the game imbalanced in your feeble attempt at reaching out to noobs who will most like uninstall this game after a week anyway.

If you won't take a vote, how about this qan: I challenge you in a shark duel for the future of shark mines. Surely, the two of us in the same ship makes it fair, no?

[alanon]

I think this is a horrible idea. It's like outlawing "rock" in paper rock scissors because people don't want to throw paper.

Sharks balance the team. I would cut weasels hiding from radar long before cutting a shark.

If players don't want to rep bombs in their way, then they're not really playing to win they're just playing to have fun in their favorite ships.

When I shark 1v1 I don't mine block because I lose my advantage as soon as another shark joins. Instead, I just mine to make the entrance inconvenient. People who mine block are short lived and hunted by spiders anyway, at least by anyone who cares to actually win.

But what do I know, I've just been playing this game for the same rules for twenty years and some recent grumbling from noobs who don't want to make the effort of reaching their pinkies across the screen and pressing esc+8 should definitely trump my opinion and the opinion of other vets who actually sustain this game.

BTW, thanks for just implementing your wishes instead of taking a vote. Now the only recourse I can see is to use every remaining legal cheap move (baseterr+shields, supers, thors, shrap, bricks) to hunt down those noobs to make it as UNfun for them as possible. I'll burn through my 53 million as fast as possible and then start taking up a donation. I'll be checking play time to see whose new and hunting them in x again and again. Hey, these are legal things right? Eff only those people who like sharking, right?

This is an insult. I haven't been insulted like this since the great bux reset of '13 and if you guys gave two shits about your players you'd take a vote or something before implementing dumb changes that make the game imbalanced in your feeble attempt at reaching out to noobs who will most like uninstall this game after a week anyway.

If you won't take a vote, how about this qan: I challenge you in a shark duel for the future of shark mines. Surely, the two of us in the same ship makes it fair, no?

[Lupin]

Overall I support the idea, and think it will make pub more enjoyable. Obviously the players who enjoy sharking in small games will be offended, but I think it's the right move.

[alanon]

It's BS just because YOU don't like playing a certain way to punish everybody else. Selfish, short-sighted, and insulting especially since it's been this way 20 years.

This is my first comment in seven years btw. I doubt it'll make any difference, but in case you haven't noticed this really pisses me off. You're killing the Alanon "S" the greatest mining formation ever conceived. If this rule sticks I'm permanently quitting TW.

[mystic_pizza]

I don't like the new changes either. Solo sharking was something I grew accustomed to and greatly enjoyed and have found myself switching back to WB out of frustration at my mines disappearing so shortly. I don't think nerfing sharks is going to bring anything positive, other than accommodate players who refuse to adapt to the other team's playstyle. This is a capture the flag, after all, shouldn't it be based around improvising and adapting to the enemy's strategy?

[Lupin]

It's BM to solo shark in a less-than 7v7 match imo. Apparently I and many others agree which is why this change was brought about.

Overall you guys play pub more than I do and you're entitled to your opinion. Agree to disagree, have a good 1

[Roger Rabbit]

What a shocker


The solution to a non-problem ends up not being incentivizing others to pick a ship with a rep but instead giving experienced loyal players less of a reason to play the way they’ve become accustomed to playing. Eliminating the strategic aspect

Imagine if this fix strategy was used with a terr too lol.

This game is not attracting new players. Lack of ingenuity and enforcement of rules against pub breakers runs them off. Everyone still remaining knows we are just running out the clock, why are you hastening the decay by pushing people out

[BIET]

alanon this was hardly a decision made in the moment. There have been a couple of threads on this forum, discussions in chat, and internally within dev. No, there wasn't a vote, but there was and still is an opportunity to voice your thoughts. I totally get why you would be upset, but I hope you can set that aside and help us with a solution that you can be happy with.

[alanon]

Suggestions:

1. Take a vote. Don't just change the rules because a few people complain. Odds are the people who are fine with it aren't going to come in here and say so so your sample size is skewed to only those people who care enough to give feedback. Like I said, this is my first forum response in seven years... it's not like everyone who plays also engages these forums regularly. Don't kowtow to those squeaky wheels and sacrifice 20 years of consistency, take a vote.
2. Don't make the game imbalanced because people prefer to play a certain way. There's plenty of ways to counter a shark block if you want to win. However if the majority of pubbers just want to fly around as warbird or jav and shoot people, then don't make pub rules center around capture the flag--a game with both an offense AND a defense. This rule feels an awful lot like it's rewarding people who just want to fly around in their preferred ships from other zones but find that strategy not to be as effective in pub. THEY should adapt, not the rules (unless your goal is to alienate everyone else).
3. The reason people hate shark now is because sharks ARE imbalanced during the attach-on-anyone mode. You only get three reps, which normally you have to nurse strategically when you can only attach to a terr. However, during attach-on-anyone mode, you don't need to be as strategic because after you die, you can just reattach to someone else and keep repping. It makes suiciding sharks more common, repping more common, and shark blocking more common. Why not just disable long-lived mines during attach-on-anyone mode as a start and take it from there?
4. Honestly, javs are probably the worst ship to play in pub since they have such a slow recovery even though they're good ships in other zones. I would never play jav in pub unless all I want to do is camp on the roof or side tunnels or something and just lob bombs and warp away when people get close. I've played pub almost exclusively in the 20 years I've played this game and the ship I'd most want to go up against is a jav. When people jav in pub its usually because its fun in other zones, but when you put them in pub, they suck. Honestly, how often do you see a jav become most vet or basing king? Instead of acknowledging that and adjusting their play style, these players are complaining about shark--especially because shark mines are the most effective way of blocking those rocket-thrusting javs from flying through, eating shots due to lag due to super speed (you all know that happens) and then stealing flag. I get it, they don't like it. Don't jav in pub then. Why not outlaw bishops in chess next because you keep losing on the diagonal?
5. Make shrap more expensive. A lot of players buy this every single life and even if the mine doesn't catch you, the shrap does. I'm all for gutting shrap since honestly it probably causes the most luck kills of any weapon. It's hard to even clear the mine at entrance when you're an x when repping a mine will likely kill you due to the shrap anyway.

I can go on if that's not helpful. Why you guys decide to gut sharks and make the game imbalanced just so people don't have to go through the oh-so-hard effort of changing ships is beyond me. Can you just be honest? The people who are complaining just don't like sharking. That's the truth. Don't let those people change the rules for everyone else.

[alanon]

BTW there's a whole strategy around where to mine and when. Getting rid of long-lasting mines totally kills that strategy part of the game.

I hope I've raised enough red flags to kill this notion. Honestly, thinking about quitting for a while anyway if staff is so cavalier about the rules. I quite for a year when you reset bux in 2013. These are mistakes guys.

I'm happy to settle this in-game too if BIET or qan want to one-verse-one against me. I'll show you how a non-shark can still win against a mine-blocking shark.

[alanon]

The attached drawing is the shark formation called the Alanon 'S' (the "S" is due to the path ships must travel to reach flag). Please look at it. It does not block ships, it only hinders them. It is the greatest mining formation ever designed and the only contribution I ever want to be remembered for in this game. It is the most effective way to save flag when single-sharking against a team that doesn't have a shark-- even more effective than mine-blocking. When you mine-block, the other team (if they want to win) will ultimately switch to shark and take away your advantage. However, if you provide SOME path to flag that a non-shark can reach, the other team doesn't usually switch to shark, and it gives you the advantage of then only having two areas two defend that the other team has to squeeze through.

This strategy took a while to develop and lots of testing (the team dynamics also have to be just right for it to be effective). I'm only sharing it with you here because this is the sort of thing that players have developed under the current rules that you're now eliminating due to a couple negative complaints about other (not-so-effective I might add) shark techniques.

By removing long-shark mines, you're killing an entire realm of strategy in the game. That's why it's so frustrating. We don't all play just to jav and warbird and kill... there's actually thought in this game on the best way to win. Fine-tuning strategy like this and others is the reason I keep playing. It's also probably why I have the most consistent highest rating in each scoreset (proof: http://www.trenchwars.org/index.php?...&player=alanon).

Don't get rid of the Alanon 'S', don't toss all those years of vet strategy away just to appeal to players who don't put equal thought and time into the game. All you're doing is promoting shitty-playing when you punish that.