Amnesti

[Vehicle]

I forget the exact wording of the rule but we already have a rule against harassment. I think this likely fits.

[Voth]

Oh boy do I. But this is one of the points I'm trying to make. I have no problem with dumb %killed messages or Trump rants or gay frog conspiracy theories or whatever. To me that's entirely separate than filling pub chat with descriptions of dicks, obsession with dicks and questions about which sex act a player would prefer to preform. Hell, most of his stuff isn't even macro'd.

What people here are saying, from what I've read, is that amnesti makes them and others uncomfortable, and makes them want to play less.

The obvious rhetorical question here is: Well some people will be upset with pandering to Trump.And you're right. And that's why I say this is far from black and white and there are absolutely gray areas.

(I had a metaphor in here about how we only enforce teamkilling when it's egregious but on second thought let's not do metaphors.)

There shouldn't be any action taken as a direct result of this thread other than to monitor his activity. If he continues, he should be warned, if he refuses to stop, silenced, evades, banned. I'm not asking for him to be treated differently. I'm only asking that you not dismiss their complaints out of hand because of your reading of the rules.

---

(To Voth only: I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative and I don't hold any [mafia] animus towards you. I think we just disagree on this topic)

There is no dismissal going on here. I've replied likely 20+ times in this thread to everyone that has something of any substance to say that necessitates a response. Dismissal would be ignoring the existence of this thread or this issue or showing up to tell you all to stop being triggered and man up. I think I've been more than transparent and I actually pride myself on doing that regularly when in the past, staff has largely been a closed book on a lot of issues.

As far as the rest of the post goes, most mods won't act on any of that because it doesn't violate our rules. Maybe those of you who think it should be acted upon could help in formulating a new rule to address it. If it passes the smell test and the powers at be bless it, perhaps you'll have what you want - I'm certainly open to it.

My point is that complaining is the easy part. Creating actual change and making these things happen is the hard part. So let's get past the complaining portion - you're heard, Rab is heard, Nibbler is heard. Now do something about it if that's what you want. I'll gladly continue to weigh in and help formulate this new rule (which may or may not be enacted), but at the very least, it's community driven dialogue.

[Vehicle]

You've been around long enough to remember Machine of God, right?

Oh boy do I. But this is one of the points I'm trying to make. I have no problem with dumb %killed messages or Trump rants or gay frog conspiracy theories or whatever. To me that's entirely separate than filling pub chat with descriptions of dicks, obsession with dicks and questions about which sex act a player would prefer to preform. Hell, most of his stuff isn't even macro'd.

What people here are saying, from what I've read, is that amnesti makes them and others uncomfortable, and makes them want to play less.

The obvious rhetorical question here is: Well some people will be upset with pandering to Trump.And you're right. And that's why I say this is far from black and white and there are absolutely gray areas.

(I had a metaphor in here about how we only enforce teamkilling when it's egregious but on second thought let's not do metaphors.)

There shouldn't be any action taken as a direct result of this thread other than to monitor his activity. If he continues, he should be warned, if he refuses to stop, silenced, evades, banned. I'm not asking for him to be treated differently. I'm only asking that you not dismiss their complaints out of hand because of your reading of the rules.

---

(To Voth only: I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative and I don't hold any [mafia] animus towards you. I think we just disagree on this topic)

[Rab]

That post was constructive.

[make tw great again]

This feels like a mental illness as well Rab. If literally everyone around you is the asshole, it's possible that the true asshole is yourself. You really should not be this sensitive. I can't even name 100 active people in this game off the top of my head, yet you send hundreds of cheater calls? Do you not find this a bit odd?

Probably my favorite post in this thread. I couldn't have said it any better myself. Case in point, he has attacked me here because he does not recognize my name and therefore I am “wasting his time,” thus am a troll. Apparently you have to agree with him, you have to have a name he recognizes, or else you are an asshole in his book.

[Rab]

Nope, I didn't say it was 100 different people, just a reflection of staff's track record of not doing anything so the same people repeat-offend. Also, go fuck yourself.

[Exalt]

I've sent hundreds of cheater calls and several tickets into the ticketing system over the past few years. I've even had staffers tell me to use ignore.txt to block ?messages. Pure incompetence. Nobody in response to cheater calls or tickets ever said it was necessary to email you personally. If that's the process you need to get the bots updated and staff trained. I've even had times of getting so annoyed with staff's lack of action that I've posted reports on the forum, which of course resulted in more abuse that wasn't deal with.

On this particular subject, staff essentially doesn't exist, I don't know if anyone's actually receive any legitimate help.

This feels like a mental illness as well Rab. If literally everyone around you is the asshole, it's possible that the true asshole is yourself. You really should not be this sensitive. I can't even name 100 active people in this game off the top of my head, yet you send hundreds of cheater calls? Do you not find this a bit odd?

[Voth]

Bah, that little red "1" at top of forum pulling me back in. I am worried this thread will derail. Vehicle clearly better with words than I am:



- Amnesti has harrassed women within the community
- He has technically cheated (even if very minor cheat) a way to bypass the chat limit to spam a lot of messages constanly
- He has spammed people on opposing teams during TWD, really bad, not just 1-2 message I mean 100s and 100s I have the ?log
- He talks nonstop about his penis every single time hes on in public areas. I have a dirty sense of humour, I get it, but he's beyond funny and just vulgar and all that I posted was from a very short period in my log, in that log players did ask him to stop and when someone ignored him he just went to another person with is dick questions.

But yes sometimes he is good at jav and sometimes funny, even if people are generally laughing at him not with him.

He is a continual problem that is getting worse, are we not even going to have staff talk to him, I mean, what could it hurt to at least TRY to talk to him, simply talk?

I've tried talking with him. Multiple times. It's an exercise in futility that you probably don't fully understand until you're the person trying to do it and banging your head against the wall.

He's fresh off a 90 day ban which I personally placed, believe it or not, if that helps dispel some of the "staff aren't doing anything" arguments.

[Nipple Nibbler]

Bah, that little red "1" at top of forum pulling me back in. I am worried this thread will derail. Vehicle clearly better with words than I am:

Voth Our job as staff (I'm a lowly <ZH> at the moment) moderators should be to, first and foremost, create a semi-welcome environment (within reason) for players. The stubbornness and lack of flexibility on display here are not a good look. Also, can we all please try to remain civil in this thread?

- Amnesti has harrassed women within the community
- He has technically cheated (even if very minor cheat) a way to bypass the chat limit to spam a lot of messages constanly
- He has spammed people on opposing teams during TWD, really bad, not just 1-2 message I mean 100s and 100s I have the ?log
- He talks nonstop about his penis every single time hes on in public areas. I have a dirty sense of humour, I get it, but he's beyond funny and just vulgar and all that I posted was from a very short period in my log, in that log players did ask him to stop and when someone ignored him he just went to another person with is dick questions.

But yes sometimes he is good at jav and sometimes funny, even if people are generally laughing at him not with him.

He is a continual problem that is getting worse, are we not even going to have staff talk to him, I mean, what could it hurt to at least TRY to talk to him, simply talk?

[Voth]

At the end of the day, this is all hypothetical. I have a boss too and as much as you might want, I can't appoint myself the end all, be all of SSCU Trench Wars ban policy.

That being said, conversation is good to help get a pulse of the community's feelings on this issue at large. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a constantly looming issue that we grapple with within staff as a whole.

[Rab]

I can live with that. Much better than doing nothing.

[Voth]

This is wrong. You absolutely can ban Tower but allow Amnesti to play. Tower doesn't contribute anything to the game besides bullshit chat. Tower changes name regularly to evade ignore.txt. So you ban Tower immediately and give Amnesti a warning. Amnesti can be ?ignored for now. Amnesti continuing using messages to evade ignore.txt would be bannable, but that would be at a later time. Removing people from the zone in the right order is important because they trigger each other with their chat, even the nicest people get into political argument when you put them in pub with Tower and Manco.

This is your opinion. But if you want to put all of this power in my hands, they are both going to be banned, because they both spew cancerous idiocy on a daily basis. Just because one floats in pub occasionally and one has played TWL doesn't change what they are doing with regards to this conversation. There aren't two different sets of rules for the vets and the pubbers.

[Rab]

Are you really ready to say, okay voth, you're the ban operator of this zone, when you decide that someone has "crossed the line," whatever line that may be for me, that I can just decide that the player in question either needs to be banned or silenced for a time frame I determine to be appropriate which can be anywhere from a minute to infinite? Is that really what we want here?

With a warning first, yes. If you aren't comortable doing it you can delegate it to me.

[Voth]

Voth I think you're choosing to not look at the content of the messages.

This isn't black and white, there is definitely gray area. And it's absolutely not "all in or all out" as you said. There is a difference between spamming your love for Trump or a %kill macro and spamming descriptions of people's genitals.

When a dozen players come to you with a complaint and your response is "Well zidane and Commodo disagree with you," it's not exactly heartening. Our job as staff (I'm a lowly <ZH> at the moment) moderators should be to, first and foremost, create a semi-welcome environment (within reason) for players. The stubbornness and lack of flexibility on display here are not a good look.

Also, can we all please try to remain civil in this thread?

You've been around long enough to remember Machine of God, right? I remember vividly many of his %kill macros:

%killed slaps his tits saggy with a wooden spoon.
%killed tenderized his nutsack with a ping pong paddle.

The list goes on and on. When was the outrage then? Was anyone considering silencing or banning him because of it? Nope. People laughed about it or ignored it or raged out about it but staff was never asked to do anything about it.

I don't think you guys are fully understanding what you're banging the drum for. Are you really ready to say, okay voth, you're the ban operator of this zone, when you decide that someone has "crossed the line," whatever line that may be for me, that I can just decide that the player in question either needs to be banned or silenced for a time frame I determine to be appropriate which can be anywhere from a minute to infinite? Is that really what we want here? Because the "gray area" that you reference is different for everyone. Gray areas are like that.

[Rab]

Without going back through page by page, zidane and MHz are two veteran players who spoke out in defense of Amnesti being able to play and speak. They didn't go crazy writing an essay about it, but I saw two veteran players who have been involved in the highest levels of competition in the zone for decades speak out in his defense. Would that defense roll over to players like Manco and Tower that they have little no association with? Not sure, you'd have to ask them. But the point is that pub idiot or vet idiot, if we are going down the road of making judgement calls on if a player can play or speak going forward, you have to enforce it universally. I can't ban Tower but allow Amnesti to play. That's not how this works. We need to treat everyone the same or just keep our hands off of it unless there is a written rule violation.

This is wrong. You absolutely can ban Tower but allow Amnesti to play. Tower doesn't contribute anything to the game besides bullshit chat. Tower changes name regularly to evade ignore.txt. So you ban Tower immediately and give Amnesti a warning. Amnesti can be ?ignored for now. Amnesti continuing using messages to evade ignore.txt would be bannable, but that would be at a later time. Removing people from the zone in the right order is important because they trigger each other with their chat, even the nicest people get into political argument when you put them in pub with Tower and Manco.