Amnesti

[Rab]

If people actually listened to rab the whole zone would be banned.

If people actually listened to me they'd see I said ban about 10 people.

[Vehicle]

Voth Great response and I appreciate the transparency.

We are not a mental health institution. We should not be armchair psychiatrists. Someone's mental health should have no bearing on how we moderate their rule breaking. (As an aside, this zone is not known for its welcoming and friendly environment and I would argue that for many people the game probably has a negative effect on people suffering from mental health issues.) Someone consistently spamming gross messages in public and private is absolutely a bannable offense.

It's also not enough to say "just use (?)ignore(.txt)." There are several hundred players in the zone. I would venture to say not a one wants to hear graphic descriptions of Steadman's cock. But because of free speech the entire playerbase, many of whom are unaware of ignore.txt, has to proactively act to avoid seeing such spam? Whose interests are we protecting here?

I understand that he's a good jav. I understand many people like him. But the fact of the matter is his actions were enough to warrant a forum thread that is now 2 pages long. I ask, why is it that the community has to protect itself?

Like I said in my first post, I genuinely am indifferent to his spam. But I do think this is the perfect example to really discuss what limits there are to free speech in the zone. If Amnesti's decided to describe a n-word cock rather than Steadman's it would undoubtedly result in a warning and potentially a silence or ban. Is our speech policy literally akin to George Carlin's dirty words?

I don't envy those who truly call the shots on this one, it's definitely a tough discussion, but I think we should take this opportunity to really ask ourselves how our speech policy is affecting the zone.

[Nipple Nibbler]

Perfect example, had some heated debates with Ogron over the years that got out of hand and put him on ignore to get back to enjoying the game instead of screaming like 6 year olds at each other (which I can admit we both did). He tends to use ?message to bypass ignore list. We are fine now, so for the record I am not looking for any sort of staff interference for what we managed to grow up and deal with on our own. I am just using this as an example. Yes I did rat him out to staff, nothing was done.

No offence intended but, you are wrong if you think you can only send one ?message to someone.

[make tw great again]

Perhaps it's my mental outlet to spam N words all day, maybe I have turretts? On the second point, we don't care how people act if they are sometimes good at the game? I am sometimes good at the game, shouldn't I be exempt and do whatever I want too?


We haven't even touched on the topic about him using a program to bypass the spam limit...

Yeah—I don’t think it’s funny to make fun of folks who really suffer from Tourettes to fit your narrative. With Tourettes, the condition affects the brain and nerves, causing people to make repeated movements and sounds, not typing racist ‘n’ word responses as you are alluding to.

I am in no way excusing his behavior, I just made an observation that he appears to suffered some kind of trauma in his personal (sexual?) life, and is struggling to grapple with it mentally. He was not always like this.

As far as your spam bot, I am not versed enough to comment on that. I don’t know what or how he does that; perhaps staff can comment on how that is viewed upon.

[Voth]

Perhaps it's my mental outlet to spam N words all day, maybe I have turretts? On the second point, we don't care how people act if they are sometimes good at the game? I am sometimes good at the game, shouldn't I be exempt and do whatever I want too?



The problem with this is there are ways to get around it ?message comes to mind, staff really do nothing about it.



The thing is, I am not even going as far as to say ban him. I am saying he is a problem within the community like many others that staff are finding excuses to avoid dealing with. Say you have a lawyer who is really good at his job, but he has bipolar disorder and one day walks up and punches the judge in the face, do you think they will just continue the court session normally? Hell no. This is one of the major reasons why the game is so dead, staff constantly finding excuses to avoid cleaning the game up from repeat offenders. This is more than simply ignoring someone, this is about the image this sort of player brings to the few new players we get.

We haven't even touched on the topic about him using a program to bypass the spam limit...

Players can only send one ?message maximum. Any further are replaced by the new one. It is built into the game and something we can't change that ?ignore does not affect the ability to ?message. That doesn't make it OK that it can be used to subvert the ignore process, but it's hardly the end of the world.

That being said, I have not once received a report from you of any player that you have ignored sending you ?messages as a means of harassment, and I've been either the head or assistant ban operator in the zone for what I believe is roughly three years now. I struggle to understand how it can be said that "staff do nothing about it" when nothing like this has come across my radar from you (or anyone else, for that matter). If I'm mistaken and this has been reported but simply never made it to me, then do me a favor and make sure to send me a ?message or forum PM or similar with the information when it happens again, and I'll make sure to evaluate it and let you know the outcome. Staff does the best they can, but at times calls and issues do end up getting lost in translation by the entirely volunteer staff.

[Nipple Nibbler]

Silence would work, but I am against a ban for the simple fact that we shouldn’t shun someone from our community, especially if he really is dealing with a mental issue; perhaps this is his outlet?

when he is playing serious, and ideally, contribute to a squad, etc.

Perhaps it's my mental outlet to spam N words all day, maybe I have turretts? On the second point, we don't care how people act if they are sometimes good at the game? I am sometimes good at the game, shouldn't I be exempt and do whatever I want too?

1. Let people use ?ignore/ignore.txt and staff can intervene when said player is deliberately avoiding those avenues to continue to harass people.

The problem with this is there are ways to get around it ?message comes to mind, staff really do nothing about it.

Banning people for repeated abuse is common practice in any other game or website. Millions of precedents, doesn't get more black and white than that.

The thing is, I am not even going as far as to say ban him. I am saying he is a problem within the community like many others that staff are finding excuses to avoid dealing with. Say you have a lawyer who is really good at his job, but he has bipolar disorder and one day walks up and punches the judge in the face, do you think they will just continue the court session normally? Hell no. This is one of the major reasons why the game is so dead, staff constantly finding excuses to avoid cleaning the game up from repeat offenders. This is more than simply ignoring someone, this is about the image this sort of player brings to the few new players we get.

We haven't even touched on the topic about him using a program to bypass the spam limit...

[make tw great again]

I wish there was a magic fix with regards to all of this, fellas. As Rab pointed out, Amnesti is one of several long-time players in this community who I would consider to have somewhat severe mental/emotional issues that they grapple with on a daily basis. Amnesti happens to be quite a good player when he is focused and that is why he tends to be one of the more "visible" players because he generally is on a good squad with veteran players (until he blows it) and frequents competitive arenas rather than pub. Unsurprisingly, since our veteran population is comprised of loyal, long time players who keep the competitive side of the zone afloat, there will be more scrutiny for a player like him to exist rather than say, Manco or Tower who only spew cancerous nonsense in pub.

There are only a few options with how to deal with this:

1. Let people use ?ignore/ignore.txt and staff can intervene when said player is deliberately avoiding those avenues to continue to harass people.
2. Silence them all. What many people don't realize who are not often silenced is that it is hugely restrictive to gameplay at all. It's not just that you can't talk. You can't even do bot commands. Nothing. It makes it difficult to play the game at all.
3. Ban them all.
4. Basically what we do now... encourage people to use ?ignore and step in to make a temporary silence or ban when it gets out of control as a "reset" of sorts for the player. These don't tend to work very well with discouraging future behavior, they only solve the problem while the player is silenced or banned. Mental/emotional illness doesn't just go away because you had to take a week off of SS or were silenced for a while.

Options 2 & 3 are controversial because they sort of bring the idea of free speech into play and the idea of over-moderation. We try to balance free speech with the best interests of the game, but it's a moving target at best. I'd be lying if there wasn't many times that I grappled with the idea of just permanently banning or silencing these players. But at the end of the day, I'm one guy in a community of hundreds of players with varying thoughts and ideals, and it is a slippery slope to go down to have one person making the decision that players either shouldn't be allowed to play or should be so restricted that they will likely just quit regardless. This is a free, public game after all.

Great response. With what you just said, I think ignore would be the best option for those that are troubled by it. A lot of us just don’t mind as much and sometimes give him the token response, which I did in baseelim the other day, and I noticed how happy he got on being able to elicit a response.

[olde]

Banning people for repeated abuse is common practice in any other game or website. Millions of precedents, doesn't get more black and white than that.

If people actually listened to rab the whole zone would be banned.

[Rab]

Banning people for repeated abuse is common practice in any other game or website. Millions of precedents, doesn't get more black and white than that.

[olde]

Amnesti is amusing, can you show me on the doll where Amnesti hurt your delicate feelings? TW Characters welcomed....

[Voth]

1. Does not happen. I made the mother of all ignore.txt files and I had to update it every few days from people evading. Staff wouldn't intervene. Ignore.txt is not a viable option if the player changes names (unlike Amnesti who doesn't).
2. Agreed, silencing is game-breaking.
3. Banning them is my preference. There really aren't many main offenders. Tower, Manco, Amnesti, Sulla, skyforger, Leland (forum), 2pacz, are some who come to mind. Seems to me like banning about 10 people would fix about 90% of the problem. No brainer imo.
4. Pretty much the same as #1.

3 isn't controversial. The playerbase agrees. It's qan who doesn't agree. Too much power in the hands of 1 person, who in this case happens to be wrong.

The issue you bring up with #1 is an issue of culpable mental state which happens to also be a fairly big part of criminal law in the real world. Basically, unless it's obvious that someone is intentionally evading the ignore by making a new name to directly harass the person who has ignored them, it's tough to punish people for just making a new alias.

Again though, a moving target and no good answer. Situations are evaluated case-by-case with that.

I understand your position on it, Rab. I do. But just how you allude to there being too much power in the hands of one person in your last sentence, it can be argued that us singlehandedly deciding to completely take the ability to play this free, public game away from those people is too much of a power grab. I get the argument of it being in the best interest of the zone and game, and I can't disagree there. But it is not as black and white as you want to make it from your point of view.

[zidane]

amnesti good guy, just ?ignore if its bothering u

[Rab]

1. Does not happen. I made the mother of all ignore.txt files and I had to update it every few days from people evading. Staff wouldn't intervene. Ignore.txt is not a viable option if the player changes names (unlike Amnesti who doesn't).
2. Agreed, silencing is game-breaking.
3. Banning them is my preference. There really aren't many main offenders. Tower, Manco, Amnesti, Sulla, skyforger, Leland (forum), 2pacz, are some who come to mind. Seems to me like banning about 10 people would fix about 90% of the problem. No brainer imo.
4. Pretty much the same as #1.

3 isn't controversial. The playerbase agrees. It's qan who doesn't agree. Too much power in the hands of 1 person, who in this case happens to be wrong.

[Voth]

I wish there was a magic fix with regards to all of this, fellas. As Rab pointed out, Amnesti is one of several long-time players in this community who I would consider to have somewhat severe mental/emotional issues that they grapple with on a daily basis. Amnesti happens to be quite a good player when he is focused and that is why he tends to be one of the more "visible" players because he generally is on a good squad with veteran players (until he blows it) and frequents competitive arenas rather than pub. Unsurprisingly, since our veteran population is comprised of loyal, long time players who keep the competitive side of the zone afloat, there will be more scrutiny for a player like him to exist rather than say, Manco or Tower who only spew cancerous nonsense in pub.

There are only a few options with how to deal with this:

1. Let people use ?ignore/ignore.txt and staff can intervene when said player is deliberately avoiding those avenues to continue to harass people.
2. Silence them all. What many people don't realize who are not often silenced is that it is hugely restrictive to gameplay at all. It's not just that you can't talk. You can't even do bot commands. Nothing. It makes it difficult to play the game at all.
3. Ban them all.
4. Basically what we do now... encourage people to use ?ignore and step in to make a temporary silence or ban when it gets out of control as a "reset" of sorts for the player. These don't tend to work very well with discouraging future behavior, they only solve the problem while the player is silenced or banned. Mental/emotional illness doesn't just go away because you had to take a week off of SS or were silenced for a while.

Options 2 & 3 are controversial because they sort of bring the idea of free speech into play and the idea of over-moderation. We try to balance free speech with the best interests of the game, but it's a moving target at best. I'd be lying if there wasn't many times that I grappled with the idea of just permanently banning or silencing these players. But at the end of the day, I'm one guy in a community of hundreds of players with varying thoughts and ideals, and it is a slippery slope to go down to have one person making the decision that players either shouldn't be allowed to play or should be so restricted that they will likely just quit regardless. This is a free, public game after all.

[make tw great again]

I mean clearly he has a mental illness. The spam during TWD by itself is a minor annoyance nothing major. But when you put the fact he sexually harrasses the women within the community and he's constantly talking about his penis all over the place, I mean common where is the line? A simple silence on him for a week here or there when he's being a giant twat is not unreasonable. If some douche walks up and punches your girlfriend in the face, are you going to stand idle by just because he might have a mental disability?

If ?ignore is always the answer to every chat related problem, why can't I drop N bombs everywhere? I mean if people don't like it they can ?ignore me right? Disruptive behaviour is disruptive, mental problem or not and he seems to be getting worse.

Many people in our community have some sort of mental issues, and I don't mean this to insult.

I see what you’re saying, but his dissatisfaction with his penis and you using the ‘n’ word are two completely different things.

Silence would work, but I am against a ban for the simple fact that we shouldn’t shun someone from our community, especially if he really is dealing with a mental issue; perhaps this is his outlet?

He really is a good jav when he is playing serious, and ideally, contribute to a squad, etc.