Trenchwars over taken by cloakers

[Kharnor]

Say, i just thought of something:

What if the weasel could only fire when it was uncloaked? so if a weasel wants to fire it has to uncloak, wait 0.005 seconds or however long to get the extra energy points it needs, thus giving the other ship a chance to react, before it can fire?

I'm not saying I think it actually does need this or not, it's just a suggestion.

What do you think? All those people that claim x's are lame cause they can fire when you can't see them, would this satisfy you?

[PH]

No, they'd find some other ship to whine about.

[SpiderMage]

Yep, first it was Levis, then Lancs, now Weasels, next it will probably be Sharks or Javs, maybe Spiders.

[za gophar]

i friggen hate people who dont realize there are exceptions to every rule.

[SpiderMage]

i friggen hate people who dont realize there are exceptions to every rule.

Like you?

There's an exception to the rule that Warbirds can dominate every ship. It's called the Weasel.

But, just to humor you, what is the "exception" and to what "rule"?

[Lag.Com]

I like Weasels. I regularly use them in duels, in ABS tourneys and plain ol' fun any-ship elim.
I see them in public sometimes. Not too often, all things considered. But when I see one, I usually die. (Unless I'm a javelin, but let's not confuse the issue with any more variables here) Well done, Weasel. You managed to navigate the numerous disadvantages you had, and made a kill on a reasonably-skilled, well-experienced player. GG, Weasel.

Za should invest in a book with 'Zen' in the title somewhere, it might calm his nerves, teach him acceptance perhaps.

Edit: Unless the book was called 'Fuck Zen', that would be bad.

[Troll King]

za gopher, instead of just saying "I didn't read that because it's mostly just the same arguments", how about you actually read those posts and actually ADDRESS those arguments for once. You're right, a lot of those arguments have been said before, but some of it isn't, and even still, you never properly addressed those arguments the first time around.

[SpiderMage]

za gopher, instead of just saying "I didn't read that because it's mostly just the same arguments", how about you actually read those posts and actually ADDRESS those arguments for once. You're right, a lot of those arguments have been said before, but some of it isn't, and even still, you never properly addressed those arguments the first time around.

That TK and he never comes up with anything other than "Warbirds and Spiders can't see them".

[PH]

Jesus tap dancing Christ, stop the whining.

The Weasel has always been at a disadvantage versus any ship with X-Radar. The new settings narrowed the disadvantage, and in doing so pissed off some people who think killing Weasels should be a cakewalk. I'm sorry you little bitches have to work for your kills now. Get over it.

[za gophar]

za gopher, instead of just saying "I didn't read that because it's mostly just the same arguments", how about you actually read those posts and actually ADDRESS those arguments for once. You're right, a lot of those arguments have been said before, but some of it isn't, and even still, you never properly addressed those arguments the first time around.

i have said it all so many times my fingers are tired, troll. his argument is that the weasel is just as balanced as every other ship, and i have explained three things:
1. why it is wrong
2. other people feel how i feel
3. my solution is feasible

i have REPEATEDLY made these three things as clear as i possibly can, but i guess i'll do it again because they still have no sunken in.

1. why spidermage is wrong
the weasel is not balanced, as spidermage tried to prove. his attempt at a mathematical argument is a distraction from reality and ignores important characteristics of the weasel's settings. he tries to prove that the weasel's ability to kill warbirds and spiders almost unchecked gives the ship its balance, because it has trouble killing most other ships. i am telling you that while it is balanced as he defines "balance," it is not fair. circumstances vary. weasels are essentially handed a gift certificate that entitles them to kill every warbird, spider, lancaster, and levi in the spawn zone WITHOUT OPPOSITION. this is not my only point, it is merely an illustration of the big picture. the big picture is that the weasel is a laming machine for whoever wants it to be a laming machine. i am defining "lame" in this instance as being able to kill without opposition, or unfairly. there may be other instances of lameness in this game, but none of them are as hated right now as the weasel. you may be able to think of some, and feel free to try to get them changed. i'm pretty sure that there are no instances as severe currently, however, because this is the only one that is noticed by a significant amount of people. when you gave me the example of the spider vs. the shark, for instance, troll king, i found it to be false. however, i realized that it is still your right to be bothered by it, and theoretically you can complain about it all you want. good luck gaining support though, because no one else cares because it's not as obvious a problem as the weasel.

2. other people feel how i feel
when i got 300 kills in weasel in one weekend, a significant number of people expressed disapproval of what i was doing. need i say more? i probably would need to say more if the problem was not so easily fixable. but it is. one other thing--when i made this point before you told me people would complain after being killed multiple times by any ship. allow me to disagree. people get killed like 2 times a minute by warbirds in pub. other ships kill them a lot too. weasels get a pretty small fraction of kills in pub, i wont deny that. yet they are the single most complained about ship. that seems to contradict what you argued enough. then there is the fact that i didnt kill everyone multiple times to seal the deal. a lot of pubbers hate weasels, that's the bottom line.

3. my solution is feasible
i am going to have to hurry through this one as i am about to go sledding, but i will tell you what: any doubt that you have about points 1 and 2 should be completely outweighed by how easy this problem is to eliminate. i have proposed settings changes. they remove the factor that i claim is lame, they give an equal or greater boost in power to replace it, and they maintain the same function (spy/assassin) that the weasel has had in the past. if you would like to see these modifications i suggested, look in the thread about weasels in the twstaff forum. they are right there.

there. it is all on the table. comment on this, but dont tell me to stop whining and suck it up. i will never stop whining, and i DO suck it up; that's why i still play pubs often.

[PH]

The Weasel has ALWAYS been nearly unchecked against ships that can't see them. In case you didn't notice, along with the obvious changes, Weasels received a substantial drop in energy, from 1300 to 1020. The strength of the Weasel is still the same. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

[Troll King]

Your idea of balance reflects a different view from others' sense of balance. Your view of balance is in pure terms of kills. If you look at his last post, the one you said you didn't bother to read, he related everything in terms of the weasel as a basing ship. As I said to you before, in a basing context, the weasel settings are fairly balanced, and that is how ships settings should be evaluated, in a basing context.

All of your complaints related to weasels outside of basing, in the spawn areas, but as I said before, any changes to weasel settings have to be made in a basing context. As much as you like to deny it, Trench Wars is still a basing zone. It's in the zone description, it's in the map design and it's in the ship settings. Every ship has its role in that sense, even the levi, though many refuse to recognize that.

When you keep quoting your 300 kills, let me ask you: were those kills made in the base or outside in open space? If they were mostly in the base then there's nothing lame about that. You would be using the ship effectively in a basing concept. If not, then your complaints, and the complaints of your victims, do not matter. I know that sounds brutal, but that's the reality. The cloaker problem, as you express it, only bothers people who aren't playing the zone in the way that it is designed to be played. Any change in the ship settings should reflect the design of the zone. They should not be made to appease those who aren't playing in that style.

Now, I'm not saying that everybody in the zone has to base. Far from it, you're still free to play however you wish. If you don't want to base, you don't have to. The thing is, the zone does not have to make adjustments to facilitate you if you don't.

[za gophar]

Your idea of balance reflects a different view from others' sense of balance. Your view of balance is in pure terms of kills. If you look at his last post, the one you said you didn't bother to read, he related everything in terms of the weasel as a basing ship. As I said to you before, in a basing context, the weasel settings are fairly balanced, and that is how ships settings should be evaluated, in a basing context.

All of your complaints related to weasels outside of basing, in the spawn areas, but as I said before, any changes to weasel settings have to be made in a basing context. As much as you like to deny it, Trench Wars is still a basing zone. It's in the zone description, it's in the map design and it's in the ship settings. Every ship has its role in that sense, even the levi, though many refuse to recognize that.

When you keep quoting your 300 kills, let me ask you: were those kills made in the base or outside in open space? If they were mostly in the base then there's nothing lame about that. You would be using the ship effectively in a basing concept. If not, then your complaints, and the complaints of your victims, do not matter. I know that sounds brutal, but that's the reality. The cloaker problem, as you express it, only bothers people who aren't playing the zone in the way that it is designed to be played. Any change in the ship settings should reflect the design of the zone. They should not be made to appease those who aren't playing in that style.

Now, I'm not saying that everybody in the zone has to base. Far from it, you're still free to play however you wish. If you don't want to base, you don't have to. The thing is, the zone does not have to make adjustments to facilitate you if you don't.

what's your point troll? i said it could be changed and still fill the same roll it already does as far as basing goes. it would make the aura of the zone go up. that's what we all want.

my 300 kills were spread pretty evenly all over the map.

pure hatred, that was the stupidest, most irrelevant and completely out of the blue post i have ever read. the strength of the weasel doesnt matter to me, tone said it did to him. it could have an energy of 1 for all i care, i would hate it the same. i have pubbed way more than your ass anyway you dont need to inform me of shit like that.

[Troll King]

My point is that you still need to show reason for change. Like I said before, if you want change you need to show that change is needed. The changes you suggest are made to improve a non-basing context, and that is not enough to push for a change.

[PH]

Well I'm glad you've pissed away more of your Subspace time in a pub than I have, but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't the place for you to be whining about a ship that you yourself use. Save that for your LiveJournal or something.