Racism

[Sarien]

Using swear words is a sign of ignorance. If you can not come up with a more appropriate work or phase to communicate, than you ought to try working harder at an education.

So some of the greatest authors of the last century prominently display their signs of ignorance? Using swear words isn't a sign of ignorance. People that are too dainty and delicate for their own good, just often say that it is by trying to use a pseudo-intellectual manipulation, just to try to mask their own inability to listen or deal beyond certain words.

The 'Meism' that is shown in this community is wide-spread and ugly and it crosses all national boundaries and religious backgrounds.

I agree completely. I'm guilty of it to an extent. So are you. If you'd like a bit of introspection, what is it about certain curse words that make you feel like you have an excuse to stop listening?

This part is where we all consider 'freedom of speech' as the responsibility to LISTEN to other people, give them that same respect we all want and deserve. 'Freedom of speech' goes both ways, we all have the responsibility to not simply blow off what other people have to say, and to try not to prejudge and just ignore others.

I partly agree, and partly disagree. I do believe that people should generally treat people with a basic level of respect that is earned just from being a fellow human being. But people most days now do not understand that they don't have the right to not get offended by other people. It happens. Being offended is not harm. That said, this zone does not belong to any of the players here. The people that own it, say they want these rules, so that is just how it is. You can try to cajole and talk those people out of it, but if they don't want to listen, then the fact is: You do not get a say. So it doesn't matter in the slightest whether the rule is "wrong" or "right", so much as it exists, can get you banned, and if you don't like it, play somewhere more in keeping with how you want to behave.

Try to live a good, honorable life when you are younger. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.

He's absolutely 100% correct on this, and I doubt it could be said much better.

[qan]

Racism is included in the same catergory as discrimination, then why does trench allow discrimination to happen? They clearly class it the same catergory as racism.

The perfect example of this : tyestick awhile ago gets pissy with me in pub, an basically shouts at me calling me obese. I shout back at him in an angry mood an basically call him a J**. I get a warning yet he doesnt, although racism and discrimination are classed in the exact same rule which appear at the top of every pub map. I dont condone my actions at the time, but the fact he gets away with saying that to me its wrong, its discrimination (even tho im not obese).

Here's the distinction, as far as I can tell. It's a bit of a dance, so bear with me, heh.

Not all racism is necessarily discrimination. Just using a racist word is racist, even if the target isn't of the particular race or creed the term applies to. In that case, you're not using it to discriminate against someone of a race in particular. It's still a racist remark, though, and is illegal in any context.

Discrimination is another ballgame. It requires a target to be discriminated against. This is why people can get away with f*g. However, if there were a person who was openly homosexual, and individuals who knew of this fact were using it to discriminate against the person, here we'd have concrete discrimination. Obviously this one doesn't happen too often, but it's certainly possible and still illegal.

[Arikel]

Don't laugh at me, I'm not here for your entertainment.

Heh! i don't care if you are here for my entertainment or not! you still made it!

the rest of the stuff he wrote on his last post

:wacko: i guess there is some communication problem somewhere... I was not defending racism... i was saying that the policy against racism should be enforced but that the reasons for maintaining it should be diferent then the ones you have pointed before.

[Ephemeral]

So some of the greatest authors of the last century prominently display their signs of ignorance? Using swear words isn't a sign of ignorance. People that are too dainty and delicate for their own good, just often say that it is by trying to use a pseudo-intellectual manipulation, just to try to mask their own inability to listen or deal beyond certain words.

I agree that in some cases, certain words carry 'shock' value. But how many people do you know that use them that way? Additionally, for them to carry the 'shock' value they must, by definition, be used rarely. I would also say that on those rare occasions, 'shock' words should try to be spoken only to those you know well enough as not to offend.

Consider how 'shock' words are most often used in an emotional way. So I stick with the premise that this is why they are thought to be opposite of intelligence and forethought. When you smack your finger with a hammer you shout out 'fuck!'. You aren't thinking for a better word, you aren't thinking about the best way to communicate your thoughts, you really don't care about protocol.

I partly agree, and partly disagree. I do believe that people should generally treat people with a basic level of respect that is earned just from being a fellow human being. But people most days now do not understand that they don't have the right to not get offended by other people. It happens. Being offended is not harm. That said, this zone does not belong to any of the players here. The people that own it, say they want these rules, so that is just how it is. You can try to cajole and talk those people out of it, but if they don't want to listen, then the fact is: You do not get a say. So it doesn't matter in the slightest whether the rule is "wrong" or "right", so much as it exists, can get you banned, and if you don't like it, play somewhere more in keeping with how you want to behave.

But what about learning? What about teaching? What about helping friends? Is there not any or that in this community? I have enjoyed watching some people mature and grow in this community over the years. I enjoy trying to help people learn and grow. I have never agreed with the perspective 'it is just a game'. Most of the time I see people say that, it usually is reflecting a defensive person. I don't know about anyone else, but I think that anyone who puts in 100's or 1000's of hours into something, it's more than a game.
I have a life, I help people in that life. I also have a hugely stressful life (like many I am sure) and fairly successful life. Being here, helping a guy with his PC problem, helping a person by reviewing their college entrance application, listening to and learning from people who have different cultures, and all inside a community that provides an enjoyable interactive gaming backdrop, is the reason I hang around.

But the issues of ignorance, racism, and closed minds is the downside. The anonymous nature of this medium provides a cloak for the ugly side of people to come out. But this is why I hope people will at least try to consider improving themselves. Rather than hurling the 'easy' curse word, perhaps try to hold them for the rare occasions when you really need some fucking emphasis.

[Ephemeral]

Here's the distinction, as far as I can tell. It's a bit of a dance, so bear with me, heh.

Not all racism is necessarily discrimination. Just using a racist word is racist, even if the target isn't of the particular race or creed the term applies to. In that case, you're not using it to discriminate against someone of a race in particular. It's still a racist remark, though, and is illegal in any context.

Discrimination is another ballgame. It requires a target to be discriminated against. This is why people can get away with f*g. However, if there were a person who was openly homosexual, and individuals who knew of this fact were using it to discriminate against the person, here we'd have concrete discrimination. Obviously this one doesn't happen too often, but it's certainly possible and still illegal.

If I may also try some clarification...
Racism is an internal 'state of being'. Being a racist is something inside your head that you control and can choose to act upon or not.

Discrimination is an external act or behavior.

Governments can not control what is in your head, you can not legislate people to not be racist. Humans can walk around thinking whatever they want. But a government can legislate against discrimination, targeted at preventing people from acting a certain way.

[soup]

If you can't stop yourself from saying the n-word or Jew (in a derogatory manner) then you're stupid enough to deserve a 3 month ban and probably won't live 3 months to see your ban lifted (nobody likes people who run around calling them n*gs, especially black people).

lol i never said jew and also i said that i only use it when people really pisses me off what doenst happen much also i'm not banned for 3months it is 2 months(1month for racism and the other month because some staffe hates me)

And what happens when a black person calls us whitey or whatever , I bet they don't get a ban because maybe he says we would banning him because he is black and that ain't us right!! And another thing I dont give a fuck if somebody calls me whitey , nobody cares it doens't hurt us so!!

[Troll King]

People always ask that but always in hypotheticals. Has anyone ever reported to staff when called "whitey" or other terms for white people? I'm pretty sure there are, but in those cases, have the accused been let go because "he says we would banning him because he is black"? I don't see that excuse having any affect. In the name of fairness, a staffer should treat this just as if it were the other way around. If they don't then the flaw is in that inaction; it does not mean that you shouldn't get punished if it was the other way around.

And why did you state this in terms of "us and them", "black vs white"? When you said "it doesn't hurt us", who are you to speak for all white people? And while we're looking at your wording, which is it? You "never said jew" or "i said that i only use it when people really pisses me off"? Or whether this "doenst happen much" or "I always got banned for racism"? You already acknowledged that you need to work on that habit, well a good first step is to stop blaming the system for your own actions.

The other problem is that people look at this issue as a matter of "it's only wrong if it offends me". If that's your view on racism then you are completely off base and another example the "meism" that Ephemeral mentioned. It's not a matter of whether you find offense; it's a matter of knowing when something isn't right. You don't have to be the one who gets teamkilled to know it's wrong when you see it or to report it.

[Cops]

Cops,
I can agree with that to a certain extent, they can carry 'shock' value at times. But I would say that is only in situations where you and the listener know each other fairly well.

I disagree with the company needed to use swear words, it's the internet it's not really an upright moral place. You can't avoid people using swear words nor should they be monitored. Some people have to hate, it's un-avoidable. I'd rather see people hate with creatively, This can be done by mixing insults together to create new ones like fucktard or you can also create whole new insults and it beats people bustig out the stereotypical racist comments.

Being white is pretty sweet, try and throw a racist comment at me most of them suck compared to the other races of the world, wait a second being white isn't a race and you have to get to know me to know my backround before you can come up with an insult, suckers.

[Ephemeral]

In this country (USA), if a white guy walks down the street, meets and beats a black man with the intent of stealing his wallet, it is just common law robbery and/or assult.

If a white guy walks down the street, meets and beats a black man because he hates blacks, then it is a much more serious 'hate crime'.

It is this way because of history.

[soup]

@troll dude


it only happened 4 times so please ****, and if somebody calls you whitey would you report him????

I wouldn't care if somebody calls me whitey , pm me when i'm online with whitey! It doesn't harm me!!

I'm not answering again i'm maybe a racist but i dont hate black people ( I hate the ""others"" who commit terrorist attacks, those)

[Troll King]

I would, and not just if it was directed at me specifcally.

[Cops]

'i love that motherfucker so much i stuck my fist in him.

[genocidal]

And what happens when a black person calls us whitey or whatever , I bet they don't get a ban because maybe he says we would banning him because he is black and that ain't us right!! And another thing I dont give a fuck if somebody calls me whitey , nobody cares it doens't hurt us so!!

You respond to yourself here. First, racist terms against white people are just as offensive and bannable in Trench Wars as racist terms against more oppressed groups. The reason it may seem legal or allowed is because, like you said, whitey, cracker, etc. aren't too offensive to a majority of white people - especially where white people are a majority. But I assure you, racism is dealt with in a serious and colorblind fashion in TW.

[Sumpson]

Racism is stupid, but so are people who take it serious.

[Kuukunen]

Long post, so many people will just skip over this... oh well...

Here are some thoughts:

-If a guy is in Chaos and he's in a chat with all TW people. And he starts shouting racism in there, will he get banned? Will he get a warning? Will he get a warning/ban when he comes to tw? What if only few people are from TW? What if he continues doing this for months?

-From what I've seen, racism must be the most popular ban these days. Everytime I hear someone got banned, I ask what for, and get answered: "racism". I honestly don't remember when I last heard racism, but I hear ABOUT racism every day. It's like this thing everyone talks about.

-Even on these forums, people have censored themselves and the forum automatically censors the words. Is the word "******" really the worst word of the world? Is just saying it in a context it can't even be mistaken to be some sort of insult bad? Why do I hear it on TV all the time? What about internet? Should you start sending angry emails to wikipedia for having this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****** ? Maybe they should've censored it, like the tw forums do. (If you didn't get what I'm talking about, "******" is "nigg er".)

-If the thing is that people find it offensive, why don't we just ban everything offensive. At least in Finland there's this law about insults. You can get 2 years of prison for a really bad insult. (This mostly means using media for spreading false information that really bothers the target though.) If guy A follows guy B around constantly spamming him with insults, and guy A really finds that offensive, why shouldn't B be quickly banned with no questions asked? Just because the insults aren't racism or discrimination? But if B accidentally says one of the "forbidden" words, off you go! It almost feels like some staff are using racism as a sort of an excuse for banning annoying people.


TK: "Just look at the example of the kindergarten student mouthing off to the teacher. A kid might just say "fuck" because he knows it's taboo. Does that mean that the best course is to let him continue to say it to his teacher? That's not a realistic solution in that scenario, and it isn't a realistic solution here either."

First of all, as usual, that allegory sucks. (As usual meaning most allegories.) I think the reason grown ups can say fuck and kids can't is that grown ups can decide for themselves if they choose to say fuck or not. People in TW aren't all kids, (mostly?) so maybe they can decide for themselves what they can and can't say. And if you're afraid there are too many kids playing will get bad influence, maybe we should ban the word fuck too.

Actually, I think the word fuck and other swear words only have shock effect because they are taboo. In the long run I think it would be a good thing to let children all over the world to say "fuck" all they want, it would be a good thing to have the tension of breaking the taboo removed.

Still of the word "fuck"... Afaik, there are people who find swear words rather offensive, so why are they allowed? They don't really bring anything positive.

Finally, in my personal oppinion, it should be "anything goes". Yes, people might take offense on something, but this is internet, if you get really really offended by something, it's about time to learn to ignore assholes. I'm not talking about ?ignore, but if some idiot is calling you fag or anything for no reason, you know how worthless his comments are. Why would you let him piss you off? I mean if he pisses you off, he succeeds in what he was trying to do. Over the internet you will always run to people who are enjoying the joys of anonymity and trying to piss off as much people as they can. I think it would be better for the whole community that people would be exposed fully to all that so they can finally develop some asshole-filters.


Edit: http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/ozwords/A.../Swearing.html
Search for "most offensive word". Apparently that is now outdated and ****** really IS ranked the most offensive word of English language ahead of fuck and cunt (which aren't banned here or even censored), but I'm just reminding you it hasn't always been like that.