Dear Trench Wars (especially you basers),

[Pure_Luck]

You have some valid points though Apoc. I'll agree we need some new people in the basing community and a way to get them. But requiring staff to play in pub is a pretty bad idea. Changing some aspects of pubs can be accomplished and through TWPS, i'd say we could help develop a better way to achieve this. I don't see much into mambo and dungeon dissolving. Mambo, was a great squad, but got inactive and didn't do much in recent months. The biggest problem to TW these days is the inactivity due to people playing other online games. Dungeon was never considered a competitive basing squad in my eyes and most of their players left the squad for other reasons.
I don't see the whole not talking to others as a problem specially how you mentioned spastic doing that. I'd almost say that Spastic people talk alot with others since theres a good amount of people on the squad that are staff.
The post about the basing tournament. Gimme a break. A logical conclusion to Kim's tournaments was that Basing was next after those two were done. I don't think it was brought on by thix in any way. Thix making the situation worse by NOT including several basing squads who were in twl last season or were at the top of the ladder for no reason but to be biased is pretty pathetic. Not to mention how he handled TWIB. Why would anyone want a tournament with him in charge of it. It reminds of that WB tournament that guy wanted to host for 100 bucks which never happened. Now you guys are just messing the tournament up because you will boycott a real tournament by staff. Pretty sad.
I believe there are a few on forums who personally don't like staff and certain people and they keep posting on whatever they can to try and do something about that. I don't believe you guys have said or done anything that actually helped this zone out.
Anyone can come on here and say "you guys aren't leading, do something". Many people on staff work really hard to develop this zone and make things happen. The worst is to come on here and see people who have no idea what goes on or what is happening to just say you guys aren't leading. You guys want to make basing or TW better, contribute to what we have, get motivated and create ideas that will better the zone. Start to change it one person at a time not just throw your hands up and say people are failing them. People run this and people play it, I believe you all have the same say as me to change things. I've never turned down anyone who came with me with ideas to run games or to have events or any ideas I thought needed to be brought up to a group as a whole. Same with staff members. If any of them were motivated to host or do something that wasn't being done I tried to give them the power to host or help the accomplish their goals.

[genocidal]

I said they made them look like that. If I had said, "Basers are all incoherent retards," then that would have been a stereotype. My point was they give basers a bad image. Not really sure what point you're trying to make anyway.

[deathking]

for my opinion, that is one of the most important point, but not the most crucial

for example, the basers look upon people they hav'nt heard of in twbds and most importantly, in ?go base.

I mean, how is anyone new to the game able to be picked into ?go base. The point is, no one will choose the guy and in turn no one will be able to know he/she better. A sane person wouldnt go bench themselves for like 10 games before going on and play, and be "blamed" for their skills.

The guys left will go pub or other places, and they would rarely come to base anymore. No one will no him, and the cycle continues, isolating people from each other.

To my conclusion, ?go base is one of the other issues we should look at.

[Theif of Time]

Nevermind, I was misreading it.

Best way to get picked it to be a familiar name. If the caps know you they'll probably pick you over someone they don't know.

[Apocalypse WOW!]

You have some valid points though Apoc. I'll agree we need some new people in the basing community and a way to get them. But requiring staff to play in pub is a pretty bad idea. Changing some aspects of pubs can be accomplished and through TWPS, i'd say we could help develop a better way to achieve this.

Has it ever been tried before? The problem that I've seen with the TWPS system is that many people are quick to discredit an idea without actually trying it. Unless I'm mistaken, it has been said that there would be no major changes to public arenas? (Can someone clarify this for me?) Therefore, if no changes can be made to technically change the style of gameplay, one would guess that by more closely integrating zone staff into that gameplay progress would be made. Many ideas have been brought up, but it seems to me that very few have been implemented or tested.

I don't see the whole not talking to others as a problem specially how you mentioned spastic doing that. I'd almost say that Spastic people talk alot with others since theres a good amount of people on the squad that are staff.

I will partially concede this point. However, I think in many respects the squad doesn't exactly put out the image of a squad that holds top staff. The actions of part of the squad still reflect on the rest of the squad and its leaders. I suppose we'll have to disagree on this one.

The post about the basing tournament. Gimme a break. A logical conclusion to Kim's tournaments was that Basing was next after those two were done. I don't think it was brought on by thix in any way. Thix making the situation worse by NOT including several basing squads who were in twl last season or were at the top of the ladder for no reason but to be biased is pretty pathetic. Not to mention how he handled TWIB. Why would anyone want a tournament with him in charge of it. It reminds of that WB tournament that guy wanted to host for 100 bucks which never happened. Now you guys are just messing the tournament up because you will boycott a real tournament by staff. Pretty sad.

You're redirecting my argument here. I think I made it pretty clear that I thought that Thix was not the person to run the tournament and that it would be flawed. Even if Kim was going to, why wasn't the discussion brought up or talked about - at the very least with heads of those squads?

The point that you are not addressing is that there are issues that the community thinks should be talked about. Staff have not been the ones identifying these issues and giving us guidance. Please, do. This is what I'm asking.

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight, although it looks like I've succeeded. I'm trying to start a discussion about defining the roles of the members of this community. I'm also trying to determine if people are living up to those roles

I believe there are a few on forums who personally don't like staff and certain people and they keep posting on whatever they can to try and do something about that. I don't believe you guys have said or done anything that actually helped this zone out.

What more can I do besides coming onto the forums, putting down my opinion here, and adding my opinions to the various proposals? Why don't you show us how we can be helpful? Staff are the people in the position to give us this sort of guidance. Why aren't you?

Anyone can come on here and say "you guys aren't leading, do something". Many people on staff work really hard to develop this zone and make things happen. The worst is to come on here and see people who have no idea what goes on or what is happening to just say you guys aren't leading.

You guys want to make basing or TW better, contribute to what we have, get motivated and create ideas that will better the zone. Start to change it one person at a time not just throw your hands up and say people are failing them. People run this and people play it, I believe you all have the same say as me to change things.

Don't you get it yet? This my point that you're spelling out for me! How can we know what goes on if you don't tell us? I thought I was very clear in stating that I thought staff was doing a good job on the technical side. It's on the social side that I think you need some work. We all need to step it up, but being staff, you are the ones who should be showing us how to step it up. That's why you're staff.

And come on, we all very clearly don't have the same say as you when it comes to the running of this zone. I shouldn't have to point this out.

I've never turned down anyone who came with me with ideas to run games or to have events or any ideas I thought needed to be brought up to a group as a whole. Same with staff members. If any of them were motivated to host or do something that wasn't being done I tried to give them the power to host or help the accomplish their goals.

But they come to you. Communication is a two way street.

Here's an idea I just had - why not keep a log or plan that staff updates from time to time on the website, telling us about the things that are tough, the things you're doing, the concerns you have, and asking for input on the forums for the things you're concerned about? It keeps you accountable and let's us all know what's going on, on all levels of TW coordination? Surely that couldn't be too hard?

[Theif of Time]

Lunar Crescent used to be a communications mod, or something, basically communicating whats going on in upper staff to lower staff. Perhaps someone should be given the job of communicating what goes on not only to lower staff, but to tw in general.

Then again, it'd be pretty boring, I think. Not that much can go on.
But, smods personal lives could become the bread and butter of the tw community. Oh, the gossip. We could all hear Dameon Angell's stories, for example.

[deathking]

Lunar Crescent used to be a communications mod, or something, basically communicating whats going on in upper staff to lower staff. Perhaps someone should be given the job of communicating what goes on not only to lower staff, but to tw in general.

Then again, it'd be pretty boring, I think. Not that much can go on.
But, smods personal lives could become the bread and butter of the tw community. Oh, the gossip. We could all hear Dameon Angell's stories, for example.

lol?

[genocidal]

Apoc your logic is fucked up.

First you say that staff is doing a great job on the "technical side." I don't know what that means really but I can assume it means that they're doing their job by hosting games, holding TWL, making bots for you people to use, running tourny every weekend, running ?go duel, keeping racism out of the zone, keeping cheaters out of the zone, and answering help calls and helping new people learn how to play. I agree that staff is doing a pretty good job of that. The only real problem as of late was the hosting but PL has figured that out at least for this month with the hosting competition. It's not the administrators' fault in the first place that the ERs are not delivering - they don't get paid to host or anything so there's not a lot of incentive other than helping the zone. All things considered, I thinkt he ERs are doing a fine job.

So, if the problem is the "social side" of staff, then why do they need some stupid website that serves as an open forum for everything that goes on in staff. That seems like an exorbitant waste of time considering these guys spend a large part of their lives (often hours a day) doing various things that they don't get paid or rewarded in any way for except for making the zone better. For example, people code bots which takes forever, organizing and running a league like TWL is a huge job (props to PL for doing that the past two years by the way, despite what all the whiners always say), host, answer calls, etc. So, asking them to waste more of their time by making a website and posting a daily log of their activities is the stupidest idea I've ever heard.

If the problem is the "social side" anyway, then a website made for accountability, as you say, wouldn't solve anything. Staff would need to revamp its image by firing a lot of people and hiring "nice people" (like you and your friends huh). Well that's also a stupid idea.

Now you may say that staff telling TW everything they do improves the "social side" somehow but that seems more like an accountability issue, like you said, to make sure they do stuff (and I already explained why that's stupid). Shayde does a good enough job of posting on the website and stuff so I don't really know what "social side" you expect staff to have.

You slippery slope/TW doomsday people are getting old. The zone isn't dying and staff is doing a fine job. I look forward to TWL and I'm sure you do too - you just need something to complain about in the off-season.

[deathking]

Depends on wut level of staff you're looking at

the lower staffs are doing a very good job hosting events and such, and they always do a good job.

to the upper staffers...i dunno. I guess things are a bit crazy rite now, with qan on the leave for a lil hurrican and the constant conflicts arising. Now amongst the upper staffs even some of the most crucial jobs are undone, such as uploading new maps and such

[Apocalypse WOW!]

All things considered, I thinkt he ERs are doing a fine job.

Where have I disagreed with you on this point, or even brought up ERs?

So, if the problem is the "social side" of staff, then why do they need some stupid website that serves as an open forum for everything that goes on in staff. That seems like an exorbitant waste of time considering these guys spend a large part of their lives (often hours a day) doing various things that they don't get paid or rewarded in any way for except for making the zone better.

Actually, a lot of websites keep .logs and little notes on what they're doing. A couple sentences every few day doesn't hurt anybody. Way to blow things out of proportion.

If the problem is the "social side" anyway, then a website made for accountability, as you say, wouldn't solve anything. Staff would need to revamp its image by firing a lot of people and hiring "nice people" (like you and your friends huh). Well that's also a stupid idea.

Well you just like to jump conclusions don't you. Why don't you let the grown ups talk and let us know if you have anything productive to add to this discussion besides profanity and insults. And yes I did just insult you but thats ok because I've actually been making points and trying to reach consensus. You can do that, can't you?

God forbid I make a suggestion because it has come to my attention that despite what you'd like to think, a fair number of people agree with me. I won't respond to you again unless you have something worthwhile to add to this discussion.

[genocidal]

Ok well you still didn't answer what my entire post was demanding: what exactly the problem is right now with the "social side" and why you being able to see trivial things that upper staff does in their website .logs will help that.

I wasn't insulting you - I was insulting your idea. I didn't even use profanity (unless you consider "hell" profanity in which case I would have to wonder at what point you consider yourself an adult).

Once you make a real proposal or argument with a sensical alternative I will respond to you further.

[moltenrock]

Lol

Hi Apocccccc

Everyone has great points and ideas =D.


Lets carry out them ideas. =D

Apoc, make a post on what we should do to fix problems. ^-^







P.S. Don't yell at me you fags.

[Sumpson]

I was talking about how stupid you three are in general and how you make basers look like bumbling, incoherent, children. Hell, Sudden lead a squad that almost won TWLD but that doesn't make him anywhere near a productive member of Trench Wars.

You three? Once again I had nothing to do with the set-up of this tournament. If that's all you gotta say about it you are being the one retarted since I was asking what I was doing wrong and make the basing scene give a bad image so I could work on it.

PS: PH you're not really worth a reply, I'll just concider you ignorant.

[D1st0rt]

The Burger King interception commercial is pure genius

[Hark]

This is to you Gen.

I stopped reading this thread after it started to make no sense. I've known sump for a little over a year, and I rarely see him talk in public chat other then when he asks for BDs. He doesnt even talk that much on the BC chat. Sump is a very intelligent guy, and I dont see how you can call him an idiot for bringing in tons of new basing talent. Look at the newer players that have kept the basing community alive, and probably 90% of them were on Quirion/Infanite/First Stage at some time. Sump has probably done the most good for the basing community in a long time. So dont even try to blame him for anything. Its appalling that you could even think of grouping him with thix let alone DO IT. Man, this is disgusting. You are the reason basers have a bad reputation, asshole.