Distension Beta Suggestions/Bugfix thread

[Aquatiq]

I think teamkilling should be like it is in pub, you get 1 reminder from pubbot about the first time someone teamkills you and gives you the option to ::report it or whatever thereafter. Between the teamkiller and the victim, there needs to be a 3rd party to decide how to handle it, because sometimes victims can be overzealous about getting someone banned for teamkilling them, when in reality the teamkiller hasn't done enough wrong to be disciplined. It's going to be a massive failure if the bot tries to police this by the numbers alone.

[alinea]

<snip>
Terr power: I'd like to do a couple of things with the Terr to make it more desirable after the burst change. The first is to give it the option to be able to stay alive longer and still be offensive. This can be accomplished by more numerous and cheaper portals. If a terr doesn't have to rely on what is usually a single port for emergency escape, it can use a spare for an offensive move. The second is increasing bullet speed very slightly (very). Finally, if the multi is not being used very often anyway, I can tighten the spread and make it cost slightly less than a normal shot, but with a large UP cost. This gives a Terr an option to make an offensive build by focusing on the gunning systems, if they're willing to sink the points into it. Opinions on this?

Ahh the terr... it used to be one of my favorites to play (still is in pub), but it has been troubling me over the past few weeks. I just couldn't nail down why it seemed to have become more and more painful to play, to the point now that I just refuse to switch into it. And not just since the burst changes, but before, and worsening since. I think I've finally come to the conclusion that it's just far too vulnerable. Yet it's held not only to the high standard of a pub terr (staying alive), but even more so as backup terrs in Distension are a very rare sight.

In pub, the terr concerns include the wb, a jav bomb, the weasel and the opposing terrier bursts (as far as one hit kills go). But in Distension, the wb is faster and it has spread bullets. The weasel is faster, comes with a portal and a rocket. The jav doesn't just have the bomb, it has a crapload of one-kill shrap and a wider radius. And we also have the Levi with it's radius -- both teammates and not, which have the potential to make you vulnerable to one hit kills by every other ship out there. Then of course there's the super spider which is equally troublesome now and even a bit of a threat from the sharks. To top that off, my terr at rank 43 is vulnerable to just one red bullet if I shoot just once. Granted, I have a lvl 2 bullet. But how many can eat that level 2 bullet? And since there appears to be a delay on the terrier after shooting or bursting that prohibits it from portalling away immediately, shooting now nearly guarantees your death. That leaves the terrier being OK to play, if you play 100% cautiously and portal away at the slightest bit of trouble. And that's just too boring to play. The extra bursts may have made up for this vulnerability earlier on, but now that they're gone AND the other ships are continuing to increase their bullet and bomb strength, its just made the terr impossible to survive in.

So I don't think the portals are a good idea for the terrier. Perhaps more/cheaper energy and recharge upgrades. Or the other ships need to be reduced (definitely to include the one kill shrap).

I didn't want to be one of the ones crying that their favorite ship was nerfed, and so I just switched to the spid/lanc. But it seems the lack of terriers in the game problem continues on, which affects me no matter what ship I'm in. So there you have it, my 2 cents. :turned:

-ali

[Mjollnir]

Ahh the terr... it used to be one of my favorites to play (still is in pub), but it has been troubling me over the past few weeks. I just couldn't nail down why it seemed to have become more and more painful to play, to the point now that I just refuse to switch into it. And not just since the burst changes, but before, and worsening since. I think I've finally come to the conclusion that it's just far too vulnerable. Yet it's held not only to the high standard of a pub terr (staying alive), but even more so as backup terrs in Distension are a very rare sight.

In pub, the terr concerns include the wb, a jav bomb, the weasel and the opposing terrier bursts (as far as one hit kills go). But in Distension, the wb is faster and it has spread bullets. The weasel is faster, comes with a portal and a rocket. The jav doesn't just have the bomb, it has a crapload of one-kill shrap and a wider radius. And we also have the Levi with it's radius -- both teammates and not, which have the potential to make you vulnerable to one hit kills by every other ship out there. Then of course there's the super spider which is equally troublesome now and even a bit of a threat from the sharks. To top that off, my terr at rank 43 is vulnerable to just one red bullet if I shoot just once. Granted, I have a lvl 2 bullet. But how many can eat that level 2 bullet? And since there appears to be a delay on the terrier after shooting or bursting that prohibits it from portalling away immediately, shooting now nearly guarantees your death. That leaves the terrier being OK to play, if you play 100% cautiously and portal away at the slightest bit of trouble. And that's just too boring to play. The extra bursts may have made up for this vulnerability earlier on, but now that they're gone AND the other ships are continuing to increase their bullet and bomb strength, its just made the terr impossible to survive in.

So I don't think the portals are a good idea for the terrier. Perhaps more/cheaper energy and recharge upgrades. Or the other ships need to be reduced (definitely to include the one kill shrap).

I didn't want to be one of the ones crying that their favorite ship was nerfed, and so I just switched to the spid/lanc. But it seems the lack of terriers in the game problem continues on, which affects me no matter what ship I'm in. So there you have it, my 2 cents. :turned:

-ali

Agreed with the Terrier part. Less portals, more energy and recharge. Especially the recharge could be upped a lot I bet. Just have to make sure it isn't impossible to kill a terr with yellow bullets because that's what people will have for a long time when the ships get reset. Oh.. and the Jav sharp isn't a one-hit-kill but a yellow bullet (for my jav at least).

[meddi]

I think teamkilling should be like it is in pub, you get 1 reminder from pubbot about the first time someone teamkills you and gives you the option to ::report it or whatever thereafter. Between the teamkiller and the victim, there needs to be a 3rd party to decide how to handle it, because sometimes victims can be overzealous about getting someone banned for teamkilling them, when in reality the teamkiller hasn't done enough wrong to be disciplined. It's going to be a massive failure if the bot tries to police this by the numbers alone.

I don't see what is wrong with increasing RP penalties as TK frequency increases. This isn't about banning intentional TKers, it is about discouraging stupid shots by ships with increasingly more devastating bombs.

[DankNuggets]

re: terr suggestions

i think that a higher top energy (even though it's already pretty high) might help terrs survive longer and make some of these one-hit-kills go away (altougth there's not too much you can do to defend against bursts and lvl 3 anything), but i also think that one of the reasons for the complaints is that the terrs are upgrading to lvl 2 bullets as soon as they can. The best way to get kills as a terr isn't to chase down a ship 1v1 both at full nrg and gun it out-- the majority of terr kills (at least that i get now) are with lvl one bullets being sprayed somewhat randomly in fr battles. The reason is i can shoot 3-4 and still survive a lvl 1 bullet, but the spiders/lancs/wbs with lvl 2 bullets often can't. Also, while they are eventually going for the terr, most of the time i can vulch several kills while they're shooting my support.

In sum, I think that the more bullets (not more powerful ones) that are a better solution for terrs b/c it gives them more oppurtunities to hit more people, a larger spray to hit people, and it leaves them with enough energy to take a hit or two. So maybe lower the bullet cost for terrs? Decoys to throw off attackers? Rebounding bullets?

re: sharks suggestions

its sucks even more to play a low level shark than any other ship, even terr. if they had more reps to start with, one or maybe two upgrades to 4 and then 5 reps later. Or instead of upgrading to 4 ever, which allows for fr charges, cap it low and give them regen at a low level? as for later level sharks, it's a bit overpowering as is, but i would like to see the firing rate upped anyway- that side arm lvl 1 bullet should be more useful

re: jav rockets/sharp

the rocket on a jav is my favorite feature from pub, and i still think it really helps get that one sure kill. it seems fine as is, but maybe its seems ineffective b/c a lot of ppl still have low level turning/top spd? As for shrap, i feel i get killed way too often from lvl 3 shrap. i think it should be capped at lvl 2 until waaaaay high ranks, but let them get higher levels of it. a bloom of level 1 shrap is more fun to play with than 2-3 lvl 3 shraps anyway.

Misc questions:
Will any ship get rebounding bullets? Will anyship get bricks? Can ships have inverted reps and others still have normal ones?

[gdugwyler]

Changes: (forgot to add what I did yesterday)

• Shark: Starts with 2 reps, gets a 3rd at rank 4. Max 5 repels, the 4th and 5th being available quite a bit later. First (and now second and third) regen available earlier.
• Terr: More portals available. As of today I will also increase how much each upgrade of recharge and energy give. (See below.) Multifire is now much more expensive, but has a spread almost as tight as the Lanc. Those interested in a more offensive build for the Terr should consider it.
• Shark/Terr limits: Implemented. You can now only have +1 shark than the other team, and +2 terrs. (The Terr limit is wide because in an early game, if two people want to Terr and no-one on the other team has yet entered a Terr, they should still be able to do this.)

TKs: Presently the TK penalty as compared to the amount earned per kill is drastically different, and widening with every increase of the beta multiplier. This is due to negative RP not having the bonus figured into it. When there's no multiplier, TK penalties are going to be much more severe in comparison to TKs. To reflect this I will have the bot manually figure in the multiplier. This means TKs will reduce RP 3.9 times of what they are presently. This may seem grossly unfair, but this is the number we should be starting with and adjusting from, as it's proportionally equivalent to how the TK penalty will work when Dist is released. If this is not sufficient we'll look at the other more complex options from there. Note that a PubBot will be in Distension at public release, and will have TK monitoring enabled just as in pub. ::report will be active, and intentional/excessive TKing will be the usual warn-able/ban-able offense.

Terr: I can't increase the delay between firing and being able to use a portal due to config constraints, but I can try upping the recharge and energy a slight bit -- more on the recharge than energy. I would like to keep portals at the present level, though, or at least for the meantime. Even moreso than bursts, ports are a defining part of the Terr (with attachability being the most), and while this will make the ship harder to kill ... as it should be ... it will also allow for a great deal more tactical options on the part of the intelligent player.

Spider multi: With the addition of a now-useful super, the delay between shots of spider multi has been increased slightly, while the amount of energy required to fire the multi is reduced slightly.

Spider anti: Spider anti cost has been reduced, as is the energy cost to have it on. However, the range of effect is also reduced.

Limiting system: Sorry about the problems. It's as yet untested. I'm planning on having it at 50, but need it at 40 right now to be able to make sure it works. Also, yes, there is a possibility of having multiple Dist arenas. Will have to see the server load.

Investigating the crash as well. Looks like an unusual exception.

[AcidBomber]

Does any other ships get anti-warp other than the spider?
And what's the radius range? Just the radar? or smaller? ._.


RE: Terr - It should now increase more flagroom battles

RE: Shark - Sounds like a good change so we at least have a better chance of winning games with a shark like MeDDi playing against us. Easier for someone to switch into a low ranked shark and still make a difference.

TKs - Don't see it as much of a problem when you have the -RP same as killing someone. However, the biggest problem I see (and this is directed at levis) is the emp bomb they throw, it emps your teammates (not necessarily killing you), but GET you killed by enemies...
I think it should be alright because Distension is a public arena and ?Cheater will be taken by staff to watch levi's that just emp teammates more often than necessary. Perhaps that could discourage levi's from firing as soon as their energy is full. -_-

[Mjollnir]

Does any other ships get anti-warp other than the spider?
And what's the radius range? Just the radar? or smaller? ._.


RE: Terr - It should now increase more flagroom battles

RE: Shark - Sounds like a good change so we at least have a better chance of winning games with a shark like MeDDi playing against us. Easier for someone to switch into a low ranked shark and still make a difference.

TKs - Don't see it as much of a problem when you have the -RP same as killing someone. However, the biggest problem I see (and this is directed at levis) is the emp bomb they throw, it emps your teammates (not necessarily killing you), but GET you killed by enemies...
I think it should be alright because Distension is a public arena and ?Cheater will be taken by staff to watch levi's that just emp teammates more often than necessary. Perhaps that could discourage levi's from firing as soon as their energy is full. -_-

Monitoring levis and proving their guilt is really hard and they will most likely get off this whole thing really light. On the other hand, this whole TK penalty thing will be really hard on the Javelins since they get a lot of TKs basically because of the way the flagroom is built. Another big reason for the TKs are people who just won't listen to my warnings about going to places where I will certainly shoot when the enemy is coming in (mostly in the center of the fr entrance). Since it's going to be a public arena it will be full of droolers and I for one am not looking forward to all the reports made about my Jav.

To be fair, I do make a lot of crappy shots too but it's also impossible not to TK with the yellow bomb in a crowded flagroom. I would say the bombs usually take out a lot more enemies than friendlies so they aren't that bad. If the penalty was increased to amount to the beta multiplier the penalty is going to be huge but I will whine about that after testing it out.

Oh, I almost forgot about the antiwarp. I think it's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and having it should almost guarantee your team's victory if you can keep their terrs antied. What was the reason for making it cheaper?

EDIT: Got some new info on the Anti. It has a 700 pixel range which isn't even a flagroom so it sounds about right. Hopefully it still takes plenty of energy because it is a really powerful ability to have and will undoubtedly own the Terriers pretty hard.

[roxxkatt]

-slower, more dodge-able shrap ?
-fixed angled shrap

#1: agreed
#2: affects ALL shrap, but i might back this idea

terr

my vote, biggest max nrg, low recharge
like 3000, but takes 10s to recharge...

tks

i am the bomb-iest player in the game atm.
noone will argue this.
my suggestion for tks is: counting the tks that are made without killing an enemy within 2s.
this might be too big of a strain on the bot tho...
the main people complaining about tks are sharks with low nrg, spids that sit in groups of nmes with low nrg, and an nme wzl that i go out of my way to prevent rocket/port-ing our bt...

best course of action:
the current pub tk system would also work best for dist.
however, mods playing shouldnt count...
(ive never been warned for anything outside dist, and yet -3- ez mods have warned me out of spite so far... ;D)

levi multi

has the delay been reduced yet?

anti

ive only heard of acid getting it, id like to see more anti.
this game has way too much portaling >_>
would suck for terrs tho, so meh

limiting

i like this idea, but would only work well with multiple arenas.

"Just enter into a ship to start playing (1 and 5 are starting ships)"

saw this from the bot today...
....WTF?



dist is looking good! =)

[meddi]

To be fair, I do make a lot of crappy shots too but it's also impossible not to TK with the yellow bomb in a crowded flagroom. I would say the bombs usually take out a lot more enemies than friendlies so they aren't that bad. If the penalty was increased to amount to the beta multiplier the penalty is going to be huge but I will whine about that after testing it out.

It will represent the same ratio as the actual release values without the multiplier, as dug mentioned. I think this is a good idea to have them in proportion. If you are killing more enemies than good guys, you shouldn't have a problem.

[Mjollnir]

It will represent the same ratio as the actual release values without the multiplier, as dug mentioned. I think this is a good idea to have them in proportion. If you are killing more enemies than good guys, you shouldn't have a problem.

The problem comes from most enemies being low level kills. The logic of having them in proportion is valid though. It's just that it is probably going to be too big of a penalty.

[meddi]

We shall see, I suppose. I think it is important to test how proportioned it will be.

[AcidBomber]

Bot ended the game without saving ehehe... -_-

[Mjollnir]

Bot ended the game without saving ehehe... -_-

And it ended prematurely right after the round that was going when Dug left. About the test: The TK penalties seemed really harsh. Often killing the attacking enemy Terrier would actually lead in getting negative RP even if I killed like 3 enemies and one of the teammates since I got like 20+20+60 - 168.

[Vergilius]

and an nme wzl that i go out of my way to prevent rocket/port-ing our bt...

Somehow i feel adressed by this... :fear:

On dist-topic: the rumor of all progress from the last 3 days being deleted, true?