++++ Small Weasel Petition ++++

[Snodrvr]

The small weasel doesn't mess up the basing game, At least it shouldn't now that the flag has to be held for five seconds to count. If a small weasel can mess up your basing, You're doing something wrong.

[Andy H.K.]

Four issues I'd like to bring up here.

1. Flag reset timer

I think it touch a basic question of a TW game: What should capturing the flag mean?

Are we just playing tag with a stationary pole? Do we expect the team that has the flag to also have complete control of the flagroom or even the whole base?

I think we should all expect the team that has the flag to also have the flagroom for themselves - they need to hold it for 3 minutes to win afterall. How should the attackers take the flag for themselves, then? Do we expect them to wipe out the defenders first?

If the answer is yes, a reset buffer time of 10 seconds sound reasonable - no enemy are expected to be around anyway. This buffer time ensure that flag timer is reset not because "some lucky ass touched it", but "we wiped the enemy out". Looking at similar games: World of Warcraft battlegrounds, they need to touch AND KEEP TOUCHING the flag for 10 seconds to make a capture, if you move you have to start over; Company of Heroes, the progress bar just roll backward if you are interrupted, no need to start over, but you are still expected to be stationary for 10 seconds.

Teh Super mentioned that would give the team which touch the flag first an advantage as they would have a "no re-capture" insurance of 10 seconds. How about we make it so that the flag enter a "contested" stage for 10 seconds where flag timer stop counting, and every time the flag change hand it reset the contest timer?

The drawback is that we would be seeing a lot less "inconceivable", last-second saves. This would probably make the game less "exciting" or "entertaining" for some of us. Is this sacrifice worth it? Frankly I don't know.

2. Small size and finite invisibility

These two things goes hand in hand: If we are to give stealth+cloak a time limit, we need to give it alternate access to flag room; If the cloaker is small, we cannot allow it to have infinite invisibility.

The small x had a big appeal to me: it operate like a diesel-electric submarine. Turn both stealth and cloak on, and you got only 17 seconds to make your kill. Wait any longer, and you won't even have to energy to shoot (unless you turn off multi, that buy you 10 more seconds).

I think it's asking too much if you want it to navigate through that tunnel under such time limit - it's bound to get caught. Even if it got through, it may not even have the resource to do anything. I think that would explain why they made it small in the first place.

Everyone interested in the discussion should keep this in mind.

Of course, the above can be completely ignored if we never intented weasels to get into flag room, like, at all.

3. Repel and Rocket

I don't like the idea of giving weasel an extra repel. If I want to repel, I would go shark. What would a cloaking minesweeper do anyway? Why bother solving a non-existing problem? Seriously, weasel shouldn't even have repel in the first place.

Weasels do need a speed boost, we had 2 solution, and I think rocket is the worse one.

Another small x's appeal to me: Thrust-shot. One multi-shoot used 70% of my total energy only, so, even in stealth+cloak (which was finite back then, remember?), I could still afford a little time to afterburn and give my shot a little push. What's more is that, if I success and made if out alive, I could just recharge and do it again! No need to ?buy rocket!

The only thing good about rocket is that is sooooo much easier to use than thrusting. In return for it, we get a ship that is pretty much crippled without it.

Thrust-shot worked, why do we have to use rocket?

4. Counters to x

To anyone who believe that small x is "overpowered", all you need is a harder counter.

Lancaster, which in my mind is weasel's hard counter, had one problem: it doesn't always spawn with x-radar.

It would have been a perfect match: weasel had finite cloak, Lanc had finite x-radar.

And you still get terrier as spotter.

[Mootland Farmer]

I will update the Weasel's bullet speed to that in #Moot in a few days time. I will also look into other modifications mentioned in this thread too.

[Snodrvr]

Thanks for taking the time to listen Moot, It's appreciated.

[DankNuggets]

I'm glad this is finally getting some attention :grin:

I don't think this a "give an inch, ask for a mile" situation. It's about balancing the issues, and it's not going to be fixed in one iteration.

here's my observations:

• I like the increased bullet speed. Anything is a help at this point.
  
• I still think it moves a bit slowly. If you could increase it's thrust/acceleration and keep the top speed low it would make it much more manueverable and you wouldn't need to decrease it's size to make it useful. You could also scrap the rocket with this change.
  
• I don't think making it small is completely necessary. It was a plus, and it would help if you aren't planning on changing any of the other variables (except making stealth+cloak finite when making it small).
  
• It really needs Xradar. What's the harm in giving it xradar? It just gives it teh ability to better police itself. That can do nothing but help in the basing game, and in general.
  
• An extra repel is a good concession for losing the rocket IMO.

[Subverter]

Back again. About the bricks. Bad idea IMO. Brick warping is fun, but doesn't add much, if anything, to basing. Bwarping seems to have just made weasels popular again, but for the wrong reasons. I do not like seeing the weasel used 'just for fun'. Brickwarping is fun, amd to a certain extent usefull, but replacing rep with brick is (in my opinion) NOT the answer to fixing weasel.

Some more ideas.

1. Make them tiny damnit

2. Terrs can activate xradar WITHOUT losing ANY energy. Why shouldn't hey be able to warp when using radar?

3. weasel spawns with NO ITEMS.

4. Let the all the ships buy more items. Warbirds with anti is a great idea IMO.

[PH]

I do not like seeing the weasel used 'just for fun'

yeah we can't have fun in pub

get out with that crazy talk

[Kontrolz]

And how are any of your ideas supposed to add to the basing? Especially that last one?

• Make them tiny damnit
  Making the weasel small has many valid arguments for how it helps destroy basing. I've gone over this a thousand times so I'm not going to repeat it all.
  
• Terrs can activate xradar WITHOUT losing ANY energy. Why shouldn't hey be able to warp when using radar?
  Considering a terr should never have to warp against a cloaker the only thing this will do is make LT's that much harder to kill when they are raping the base. Usually they have to hit xradar THEN warp when they are out of portals (assuming they have it on).
  
• weasel spawns with NO ITEMS.
  A weasel spawning with no items doesn't do anything for anybody other than the levis.
  
• Let the all the ships buy more items. Warbirds with anti is a great idea IMO.
  Making more items available for ships to buy was/is being talked about already in the thread "question time". A lot more than just "let them buy more" needs to go into that. WARBIRDS WITH ANTI?! Are you fucking joking?

[Ronn]

And how are any of your ideas supposed to add to the basing? Especially that last one?

• Make them tiny damnit
  Making the weasel small has many valid arguments for how it helps destroy basing. I've gone over this a thousand times so I'm not going to repeat it all.
  
• Terrs can activate xradar WITHOUT losing ANY energy. Why shouldn't hey be able to warp when using radar?
  Considering a terr should never have to warp against a cloaker the only thing this will do is make LT's that much harder to kill when they are raping the base. Usually they have to hit xradar THEN warp when they are out of portals (assuming they have it on).
  
• weasel spawns with NO ITEMS.
  A weasel spawning with no items doesn't do anything for anybody other than the levis.
  
• Let the all the ships buy more items. Warbirds with anti is a great idea IMO.
  Making more items available for ships to buy was/is being talked about already in the thread "question time". A lot more than just "let them buy more" needs to go into that. WARBIRDS WITH ANTI?! Are you fucking joking

It doesnt have to help with basing, does a lev help with basing? no but its still around laming everyone isnt it. The aim of this thread is to bring back the small weasel not "get a mile over an inch" or "to help basing". The small weasel is a fun ship and the best ship in fact.

I think youre wrong anyway it makes basing more interesting and fun. If you think it disrupts basing then ban it from the basing pub like levs are. As it is now its completely useless for everything.

[Mootland Farmer]

The point of giving the Weasel a brick was to make it useful in base. Even when the Weasel isn't in base, it can still be useful. Ships are really only limited by the imagination of the players.

I am looking into making the ?buy system more accessible, like I said in another thread. And by all means, I do not consider giving the Weasel a brick the final thought. Adding the brick was merely a change to invoke some thought in the players minds as to how they could now use the ship.

[Kontrolz]

It doesnt have to help with basing, does a lev help with basing? no but its still around laming everyone isnt it. The aim of this thread is to bring back the small weasel not "get a mile over an inch" or "to help basing". The small weasel is a fun ship and the best ship in fact.

I think youre wrong anyway it makes basing more interesting and fun. If you think it disrupts basing then ban it from the basing pub like levs are. As it is now its completely useless for everything.

I was replying to subverter and his post was about how it didn't help basing.

I think the buy system is much more important than the weasel anyway.

[DankNuggets]

At first I thought the repel was overpowered. It was basically 1/3 of a shark that could occasionally get a kill with bullets (though not in a fr battle due to stray fire).

Then the bullet speed was increased and it could hold it's own again.

The repel was maybe a little over powered, but it compensated for the large size and slow speed of the weasel.

The brick isn't very useful. It can be used to warp people out of base, but unless it's the terrier, they are going to attach right back in. It doesn't last long enough to really block of the flag room, and unless you're being chased very closesly, most people can manuver around it. You can't regreen a brick.

I think I've used it successfully two or three times to block off the flag room and actually have an effect on the game. It is possible. However, it isn't going to do much in a heated game, and doesn't have nearly the impact of a repel. I think to make it a bit more useful, it would have stay in place a little longer or be extended to 4-5 blocks (not sure how that would work if you tried to place it in an area too small). Or, allow it to be greened.

However, the most important change in regards to weasels involves xradar. I can't really think of a reason why they don't have it, and why they can't use it with zero energy cost. It would help against cloaking, but only giving any slight advantage to the weasel itself. It makes the ship more useful and at the same time counters its most valuable tactic.

[Kontrolz]

X-Radar with little or no energy cost would be good for the weasel. Also, the brick should definitely last for a little longer. The only real purpose it serves at the moment is warping terriers from the flagroom or warping levis/random people for the fun of it. Don't get me wrong that is a lot of fun but the brick could definitely last a little longer to serve a solid tactical purpose in the base or in a fight.

[CaptainPoopface]

Even when the Weasel isn't in base, it can still be useful. Ships are really only limited by the imagination of the players.

Well, I've tried imagining the weasel going through the holes, but it still doesn't...

I agree with Subverter that sneaking through holes is essential. I disagree with the idea that it ruins basing, as I've also said many times, but to make the argument moot, just ban the weasel from purepub, same as levi. Better a useful weasel in one arena than a useless weasel in both.

In fairness to Moot, I asked him when he would fix the weasel offhand in pub, and the next day, it had a brick, so at least he is listening.

Try one of the old maps like ?go elitebase, and play that weasel. It feels like a god weasel compared to the current one. Afterburn for days, fast bullets, some decent speed and handling. Actually useful. Remember that? Those were the days.

Dads revenge, wherever you are, may your hemorrhoids be forever raging, and may you pass enough kidney stones to never have to pay for golf balls at the driving range.

[Maverick X+]

It doesnt have to help with basing, does a lev help with basing? no but its still around laming everyone isnt it. The aim of this thread is to bring back the small weasel not "get a mile over an inch" or "to help basing". The small weasel is a fun ship and the best ship in fact.

I think youre wrong anyway it makes basing more interesting and fun. If you think it disrupts basing then ban it from the basing pub like levs are. As it is now its completely useless for everything.

The bolded statement made me lol....