blackrazor, BanID #20549, Three Month Ban ... why please?

[blackrazor]

Thank-you very much kthx, the_paul, and Dexter for helping me navigate a path to clear my name.

I had an online chat with Connection, and everything is resolved. Ban lifted. Charges dropped.

Thanks also M_M God, stabwound, and Barton for encouragement, and working behind the scenes to help things move quickly along.

[Jason]

omg!

a thread where staff did something right!

and actually got thanked for it!

please sticky this!

[kthx]

It's all thanks to me calling out Ara, otherwise he would still be banned.

[blackrazor]

Jason, I appreciate your optimism, but the hard truth is that there are some real concerns that Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker should address.

I was very lucky. I had some players, well versed in how things work, to guide me. I had some good staff trying on my behalf, and one staff member in particular, who was key in going to bat for me, and making this process much less painful than it could have been. If this had happened to an equally innocent, but unknown player, or new player, or unliked player, then their mileage might well have varied considerably.

But the fact remains that this still happened, and it was NOT an accident. It happened as a result of the way bans are allowed to be handed out by high ranking staff. There are issues in the investigation, mitigation, and plead process that really should be examined by the very highest levels of staff at this point, IMHO.

Fact is, I was banned for having an IP very similar to (NOT identical to) a known alleged cheater in the game, who is banned. I, myself, never did anything wrong, not even in a misunderstood sense, to be banned, in this case. I was banned without question, without hesitation, without interrogation, and in spite of my ten years here, all for having the wrong IP. A real world analogy would be if SWAT came to your home and sacked you, tossed you in jail, because your telephone number was off by one digit from that of a known drug kingpin criminal.

Turns out, both the cheater and I use the same ISP (cheap, no contract, no bandwidth limit, dsl, PPPoE). It has a very small customer base, but serves a very large area, and all their IP lines route through one city, even though they serve other cities hundreds of miles away. This cheater might be my next door neighbour, or he might live a seven hour drive away from me by car; I will never know. It seems though that the set intersection between "members of that ISP" and "members playing TW" is of size = 2, him and I.

I can see how this would call for investigation and interrogation, especially since the cheater had a known alleged history for evading his ban, and since the ISP is dsl PPPoE, the IP is dynamic, and will vary by these small amounts every time either of us reconnect to our ISP. But that is the whole point of basic transparent justice, "innocent until proven guilty"; you ask your questions before even a provisional judgement is rendered.

As I already said, I am grateful for my luck in this matter, and doubly grateful to those players and staff that made this luck shine so bright and effectively in my case. But I am saddened that the justice is so harsh and blind and unquestioning in the way it can be applied in this game that I have loved unwaveringly for over ten years now. And I worry for the unknown, the new, and the unliked, should they run into these same obstacles.

I can only hope that Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker watch and take note. Perhaps some good will come of this, if the procedures used to ban in these sorts of cases are evolved into something more considerate of the fact that error is a real possibility.

Note: If this game was a typical commercial venture, run by "suits", I wouldn't even bother with this post. But we are a community run project, reborn long ago from the ashes of VIE. We are tight-knit, with deep and long-term ties, and we know each other (as well as anyone can know each other over the internet). Our strength to keep this game alive and enjoyable is fundamentally rooted in each other. And so I post this today, hoping that positive change might result. Thank-you.

[Connection]

Nice story Now that you writed that nice long text and you actually really nicely pointed out players side of how they feel, it made me want to point out BanG Ops side and how we see things. I take little pieces from different kind of info and put them together. You had really unlucky that you actually use same isp and got same kind of info as the one that is a cheater and evades his ban time to time.

So the question is that what would it have changed if i actually talked to you when i believed that you were evading a ban again? Nothing really, we would have had this conversation where you say you're not him and i would been saying that you are him. So the conclusion is that you would have been either way banned and you would have been even more upset... I can't say what the info is that i had from you and why it really did match on the other guy. Yes your isp is one but as i said to you when we talked in-game there were many other issues. Once you were banned, you didn't try to log in to TW until 3-4 hours later so it made it even more harder for you because i was actually waiting a login so i could talk to you and say you were caught again -> which would lead to a different kind of conversation.

So when we take all this to a one little package, i can honestly say that i didn't need to talk to you before banning. There is a ban email for complaints and i reviewed it when i got your mail. I'm not saying that i didn't do a mistake. Of course it was a mistake now that i know for sure that you're not the guy i thought you were. Like i said, you were just really unlucky.

- Connections

P.S. For further people that gets banned and don't know why. Forum is not the right place for asking why you are banned. When you get banned and try to login TW, bantext is shown. In this bantext you can see an email address where you can send a complaint. This is the fastest way to contact a bang op to look at your case. Another way is to go to another zone and see if i am online. I would like to remind that what i do is my own free time, i don't get paid for this so no one can expect for me to react instantly on different kind of cases.

[Connection]

It's all thanks to me calling out Ara, otherwise he would still be banned.

Get over yourself, really. it had nothing to do with you or your idiotic posts.

[blackrazor]

Connection, the fact that you weren't willing to talk to me before the ban, because you were already convinced from your data, leads to two things:

1) Potential miscarriage of justice, wrongful bans. In my case, it proves that it is not only potential, but a practical concern.

2) I'm lucky I had staff who vouched for me. Even you said that helped change your mind. Obviously you were not in doubt before staff spoke on my behalf, or else you wouldn't have banned me without talking to me first. Even now you maintain this is the correct course of action. The problem is, what if I was new or unpopular, and didn't have staff to vouch for me? What if I was younger, more hot-headed, and was not able to express myself as convincingly? It all boils down to trust, and using your methods, some players who are truly innocent, are going to be having a very very hard time getting to play again. That is unfair, unjust.

I'm glad though that you took the time to explain your side of things. It's always better to get a full picture. I would ask that you keep one thing in mind. However many pieces of data you have to measure if someone is evading a ban, all those pieces obviously failed you in my case. That hopefully may lead you to conclude that they can fail again, and probably have already done so in the past. Like I said, if someone is not so lucky as to be able to convince you, as I did, then they are out of luck using your system.

Anyways, I continue to appeal to Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker to look at both sides of this, and please try to find a solution that meets the needs of the majority. This isn't for me personally, as I am already unbanned, and I know that people will vouch for me. I'm thinking about what is considerate and just for the community, when others stand accused (already convicted in our current system), caught under someone else's ban.

EDIT: I read your edits, and will reply to them here:

The other things we talked about were dynamic IP from dsl PPPoE that changed in the same way for both the cheater and I, because we use the same ISP (apparently), so naturally it changes the same way. Also the routers all coming from the same place, because the ISP is small. I mentioned all that in my first post. It changes nothing, as all the data was still wrong in this case, and thus could be also wrong in other cases. Also, even that one city, Toronto, has millions of people, so the chances of me even knowing this guy (even if I lived in Toronto, which I don't, I live hundreads of miles away as I told you) are remote. I gave you no technical information that you didn't already have, and neither did staff. It came down in the end to a question of character and trust, and that could have been just as easily ascertained before the banning as afterwards.

The four hour delay I explained to you in our online chat meeting. I didn't even know I was banned. I thought my ISP dropped the connection in the middle of a match, so I went to do other things, as I told you in our chat. But, even if I had tried relogging right away, to discover my banning, it would have made no difference. If you weren't willing to hear from me before the banning, then why after? It took the vouching of staff to change your mind to talk to me. Also, the ban prevented me from entering TW entirely. It would never have occurred to me that I could enter a completely different zone, and still private message you from there, until Dexter told me the following day to do it on your behalf. Also, I didn't even know who banned me until you responded to my email the following day, so I wouldn't have known who to message, in any case. This all just further points out flaws in the current system of banning.

The forum may not be the best place to discuss a ban, but consider this. Without bringing it public, how would I have gotten the information from players and staff, and the vouchings of staff that in the end helped to resolve this quickly and favourably? Your mind was already made up. I would have needed help in any case from the community. Also the forum is the correct place to bring these problems to the community's attention, because they effect everyone who has ever been, or will ever be, caught under someone else's ban. I am attempting to lobby for some change to the system, by bringing to light the current deficits, for the sake of the community as a whole.

Remember, like you said, most staff is volunteer. We are all a community here. This is not some big company with hidden marketing agenda. We are a family here, of sorts. We fight, we care, we play. I hope we can fix this for everyone, too.

[Connection]

Obviously you were not in doubt before staff spoke on my behalf, or else you wouldn't have banned me without talking to me first. Even now you maintain this is the correct course of action.

No i wasn't in doubt when i banned you because and i repeat myself, with all the info i had. if i would have talked to you, it wouldn't have changed anything because i was already convinced that you were evading. When ban email comes, i start to look the situation more different if i see that people say they are not who i think they are.

some players who are truly innocent, are going to be having a very very hard time getting to play again. That is unfair, unjust.

So what you are saying now is that a lot of people are going to get banned wrongfully in the future. I really don't see why you are giving such accusations. There is a reason why i got this job, it is because i know what to do, how to do it and i actually care about what i am doing.

I'm glad though that you took the time to explain your side of things. It's always better to get a full picture. I would ask that you keep one thing in mind. However many pieces of data you have to measure if someone is evading a ban, all those pieces obviously failed you in my case.

Yes it did failed, but i can't see peoples home address. but i can see a lot of info from a player. Nothing is 100% but it doesn't mean that i still can't do my job good.

That hopefully may lead you to conclude that they can fail again, and probably have already done so in the past. Like I said, if someone is not so lucky as to be able to convince you, as I did, then they are out of luck using your system.

Here we go again where you imply that our system is 100% flawed. In about 1 year, you are the first one that was wrongfully banned with all the samekind of info and i'm not talking about your isp thing, it was only 20% about the whole info

Anyways, I continue to appeal to Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker to look at both sides of this, and please try to find a solution that meets the needs of the majority.

I suggest you do that if you're not happy with the ways things are being handled.

This isn't for me personally, as I am already unbanned, and I know that people will vouch for me.

Didn't know that this was a competition.

I'm thinking about what is considerate and just for the community, when others stand accused (already convicted in our current system), caught under someone else's ban.

You're making your own statements again that there are lots of people banned wrongfully. Trust me, there isn't. People gets caught under different kind of bans for different kind of reasons and when they send an email to twbans@gmail.com, they get a response from me that i am looking their situation. It's a normal procedure and i see nothing bad in it.

The other things we talked about were dynamic IP from dsl PPPoE that changed in the same way for both the cheater and I, because we use the same ISP (apparently), so naturally it changes the same way. Also the routers all coming from the same place, because the ISP is small. I mentioned all that in my first post. It changes nothing, as all the data was still wrong in this case, and thus could be also wrong in other cases. Also, even that one city, Toronto, has millions of people, so the chances of me even knowing this guy (even if I lived in Toronto, which I don't, I live hundreads of miles away as I told you) are remote. I gave you no technical information that you didn't already have, and neither did staff.

This thing was 20% of the info i had.

It came down in the end to a question of character and trust, and that could have been just as easily ascertained before the banning as afterwards.

In internet or in continuum, you can be anyone you want without showing your true face. If i would have asked from both of you if you were the guy that evades, answer would had been no. So why do i even want to ask? It's more easier to deal with the situation afterwards. Which can be thru Email or in game.

The four hour delay I explained to you in our online chat meeting. I didn't even know I was banned. I thought my ISP dropped the connection in the middle of a match, so I went to do other things, as I told you in our chat. But, even if I had tried relogging right away, to discover my banning, it would have made no difference.

Yes it would

If you weren't willing to hear from me before the banning, then why after?

If you don't get any negative feedback, you usually are right.

Also, the ban prevented me from entering TW entirely. It would never have occurred to me that I could enter a completely different zone, and still private message you from there, until Dexter told me the following day to do it on your behalf.

After you playing 10 years, i thought you already knew that most of the bans are local ones and that you can enter another zone to private message or use ?chats. I guess i was wrong. Don't take me wrong, i am grateful that you have stayed in here 10 years.

Also, I didn't even know who banned me until you responded to my email the following day, so I wouldn't have known who to message, in any case. This all just further points out flaws in the current system of banning.

Reason for that is that there is a rule which states that we don't tell people who banned. The rule is there because it gets boring when you get harassed by childish acting players using all kinds of spam etc.
But i now added a sentence in bantext which says that you can also contact bang op if he is online.

The forum may not be the best place to discuss a ban, but consider this. Without bringing it public, how would I have gotten the information from players and staff, and the vouchings of staff that in the end helped to resolve this quickly and favourably?

I answered to your email before i even found this topic. And i would still like to remind that only way to get my attention is to write that email or talk to me in game. i don't read forums so much.

Your mind was already made up. I would have needed help in any case from the community

Not really. I'm sad that you feel that way.

Also the forum is the correct place to bring these problems to the community's attention, because they effect everyone who has ever been, or will ever be, caught under someone else's ban.

As i said, getting wrongfully banned doesn't happen so easily.

I am attempting to lobby for some change to the system, by bringing to light the current deficits, for the sake of the community as a whole.

I wish you the best of luck.

Remember, like you said, most staff is volunteer. We are all a community here. This is not some big company with hidden marketing agenda. We are a family here, of sorts. We fight, we care, we play.

We are a community and it's the onlyone what is trying to keep this game alive.

I hope we can fix this for everyone, too.

Fix what?




It's 4:23am, there's probably a lot of errors in writing.

[blackrazor]

From the way you dissected my post and your tone, I worry that you are taking this as a personal attack. Either me questioning your intentions or your ability at the job. You seem defensive. I am NOT doing that, sorry if you misunderstand. I assume that you are following your protocols for doing things, as laid out by the sysops and BanG ops before you. I don't question that.

We did chat online, and I was very open with you. You know I am passionate about justice and transparency. This has nothing to do with you; you were just doing your job. I was appealing to Pure_Luck and SpaceHiker to give a second look at these procedures, and to see if they might be able to be modified.

I made this a community request (public in forums instead of private email to them) because I also want to see what players and staff think. If everyone hates the idea or thinks it is pointless, then I will drop it. If the community speaks out, that's fine too.

There is a saying about democracy, that people get the kind of government they deserve. So if I don't like something, for whatever reason, I try to advocate for change to the system. I avoid attacking any specific people, that just makes everything harder. Like I said to you in another thread, I am looking for solutions, not problems.

[Ephemeral]

What is the metric here? Obviously it is easy to calculate just how many bans are handed out and how many are then reversed. Give us the numbers. If the numbers reveal that ban reversal happens more than 15% of the time, then improvement is called for. If it is under 15%, those falsely banned probably need to understand and deal with it.
eph

[Barton]

I made this a community request (public in forums instead of private email to them) because I also want to see what players and staff think. If everyone hates the idea or thinks it is pointless, then I will drop it. If the community speaks out, that's fine too.

There is a saying about democracy, that people get the kind of government they deserve. So if I don't like something, for whatever reason, I try to advocate for change to the system. I avoid attacking any specific people, that just makes everything harder. Like I said to you in another thread, I am looking for solutions, not problems.

Sadly enough, we got more forum trolls (like kthx, exelt..) then normal ppl so posting on here does not rly help.

[kthx]

Connection hadn't even read the thread in like three days, my link to this thread in my thread about upper staff not doing their jobs is what got it noticed. Apparently my "trolling" helped someone innocent get unbanned.

[Barton]

Connection hadn't even read the thread in like three days, my link to this thread in my thread about upper staff not doing their jobs is what got it noticed. Apparently my "trolling" helped someone innocent get unbanned.

Blackrazor made his post on 08-28-2010 11:05 PM & at 11:43 PM upper staff was aware of this problem.

Conn did not reply on this thread but he was talking to him by email...

[Jason]

What is the metric here? Obviously it is easy to calculate just how many bans are handed out and how many are then reversed. Give us the numbers. If the numbers reveal that ban reversal happens more than 15% of the time, then improvement is called for. If it is under 15%, those falsely banned probably need to understand and deal with it.
eph

i'm afraid i don't have specific numbers for you, but i do have a real world example of the system *gasp* actually working.

just yesterday a player was banned for excessive tk'ing. this ban managed to accidentally catch a squadmate of mine, not in game, and we were in between rounds of a jd match. in fact, the ban even caught one of our own ER's and i believe another player, too. connection happened to be online and i immediately brought it to his attention. within 5 minutes the issue was corrected.

while this example isn't the norm, it does illustrate that wrongly banned players will see their bans reversed. typically, the time frame isn't so swift as you have to go through the ban email process, but the only thing that will keep a wrongly banned player banned is if the player is too lazy and impatient to deal with the process.

side note: getting really tired of every minor "situation" getting blow so ridiculously out of proportion. you'd think we (tw staff) were trying to build a mosque in pub 0 or something.

[Ephemeral]

i'm afraid i don't have specific numbers for you, but i do have a real world example of the system *gasp* actually working.

just yesterday a player was banned for excessive tk'ing. this ban managed to accidentally catch a squadmate of mine, not in game, and we were in between rounds of a jd match. in fact, the ban even caught one of our own ER's and i believe another player, too. connection happened to be online and i immediately brought it to his attention. within 5 minutes the issue was corrected.

while this example isn't the norm, it does illustrate that wrongly banned players will see their bans reversed. typically, the time frame isn't so swift as you have to go through the ban email process, but the only thing that will keep a wrongly banned player banned is if the player is too lazy and impatient to deal with the process.

side note: getting really tired of every minor "situation" getting blow so ridiculously out of proportion. you'd think we (tw staff) were trying to build a mosque in pub 0 or something.

Understood, I think I was caught in a ban 10 years or so ago but I knew the right people to ask and was un banned within a few minutes. But citing specific events is opposite from what my post was trying to achieve, I was trying to remove emotion from the topic and simply discuss empirical data.

So in other words, no mosques.
eph