THE NEW ELIM BOT

[Supreme]

"Most make their judgement call based upon which one has more activity. So making one un-populated is easy to do because now TW isn't as active as it was in years past, and sheer numbers takes over which arena you choose."

As I stated (for me personally) I wouldnt go to elim even if it had 50 people.

But alright, maybe im slow, but what exactly are you proposing?

"The old system would make the most sense. The idea of grouping community together in one elim is a better idea than to force wb's to play javs simply because elim is a barren wasteland now."

But..youre in favor of grouping them (the elims) together but not in favour of forcing them to pick between wb's or javs? But..isnt that exactly what youre doing?

Also other parts are good ideas but can be done without this change (making it easier for pubbies to wander into elim).

Anyway im not purposefully trying to whine here, Jason, im just giving my outlook on these changes.

[Morh]

Useless dongledinks...

[roxxkatt]

yo dats racist

[riske85]

not everyone will completely refuse to try a new ship.

...You must not have even read my post. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the method. Trying new ships is great, but you dont have to force anything. there were many other alternatives, regardless if there were programmers to make it happen, since they refuse to comment on the issue all together. I mean we couldn't have tried pubbucks, or a rating $ reward with the donated money people begging to be spent, or running them at same time, etc. I mean if its lack of manpower and this other bot was already almost there or something like that, saying thats better than nothing.

And for the record I am greatful for wingzero, I just think this is a bad strategy, not trying to imply its all his idea either..

edit: just read wingzeros post on running at same time.

Reasons for not wanting them run at same time makes no sense. Everything you said you wanted to happened(watching) would happen either way. You say it would be confusing, but it wouldn't be hard to make it so the one you're voting for has to be done voting before the next vote starts. And whats confusing about esc+ship after that?

And how would it help? Because it GIVES PEOPLE OPTIONS. Maybe they don't want to switch between ?go baseelim and ?go elim because they are afraid they might miss a game? Or more likely, its just more effor than they want to spend playing a ship they dont like that much. But if you make it EASIER, instead of trying to force it, they might use it.

[WingZero]

Time for the facts...

In an effort to reduce some of the erroneous generalizations being made about what the public wants, here are some statistics that I have been collecting over the last day or so.

I added a couple vote tickers that keep track of a few things. Here were the results from a moment ago:

WingZero> !vi
Robo Ref> Games WB: 12 | Jav: 45
Robo Ref> Outvoted WB: 7 | Jav: 22
Robo Ref> Unanimous WB: 6 | Jav: 27
Robo Ref> Ties: 16

What these represent...
Games are the total number of games played in WB or Jav.
Outvoted is a tally of how many players had voted for WB or Jav but got outvoted by the other. (please note, I made a mistake in the code so the numbers are switched. WB is actually how many people voted for JAV but lost to WB. Jav is how many people voted WB but lost to JAV.)
Unanimous represents the number of games that got no opposing votes.
Ties is the number of games where either no one voted, or there were was a tie between voters.

Number crunching...
A total of 57 games played. Out of those 57 games, 33 came about by unanimous votes. That means that 57% of games had no disappointed players. If you consider the fact that most of the "tied" votes were brought about by no one voting at all, then that percentage is actually 85%. Keeping with the tied game assumption, only 8 games (15%) of the 57 had unfair conflict.

Judging by the number of votes that lost, it's the WBs who are getting dealt the short end and from what I can tell, its the Javs here who are complaining.
I realize there are some other things I should have been counting too but I just wanted a quick idea of how many people are being alienated.

I will be adding in some other stats and running the counter again for a longer duration.

[Sirius]

In an effort to reduce some of the erroneous generalizations being made about what the public wants, here are some statistics that I have been collecting over the last day or so.

I added a couple vote tickers that keep track of a few things. Here were the results from a moment ago:

WingZero> !vi
Robo Ref> Games WB: 12 | Jav: 45
Robo Ref> Outvoted WB: 7 | Jav: 22
Robo Ref> Unanimous WB: 6 | Jav: 27
Robo Ref> Ties: 16

What these represent...
Games are the total number of games played in WB or Jav.
Outvoted is a tally of how many players had voted for WB or Jav but got outvoted by the other. (please note, I made a mistake in the code so the numbers are switched. WB is actually how many people voted for JAV but lost to WB. Jav is how many people voted WB but lost to JAV.)
Unanimous represents the number of games that got no opposing votes.
Ties is the number of games where either no one voted, or there were was a tie between voters.

Number crunching...
A total of 57 games played. Out of those 57 games, 33 came about by unanimous votes. That means that 57% of games had no disappointed players. If you consider the fact that most of the "tied" votes were brought about by no one voting at all, then that percentage is actually 85%. Keeping with the tied game assumption, only 8 games (15%) of the 57 had unfair conflict.

Judging by the number of votes that lost, it's the WBs who are getting dealt the short end and from what I can tell, its the Javs here who are complaining.
I realize there are some other things I should have been counting too but I just wanted a quick idea of how many people are being alienated.

I will be adding in some other stats and running the counter again for a longer duration.

But even these stats in the long run aren't going to provide you with proper answers because the elim being combined is already alienating people (probably mostly wbs) from even attempting to play it (or giving up after X number of times being outvoted) and therefore the 'unanimous' votes are already biased in favor of just javs coming to play in the first place, which wouldn't be happening if there was two separate arenas.


P.S. Ruby's original post doesn't even make sense as Supreme pointed out...contradicts itself; how can the old method be a better alternative than making wbs play jav when thats pretty much what the old method is doing...rofl

Also, I am appreciative of WingZero or ANYBODY trying to come up with solutions, that's not my issue, the issue is that it just doesn't seem to be an effective solution for reasons I or others bring up

[MaGi kOz]

If there were 30 people playing elim, splitting them up would make it 15 and 15 or 10 and 20 or whatever. Smaller in numbers attracts smaller crowds. Bigger numbers let people wonder "Hey what's going on over there."

I think the benefit of having more people in the arena whether they're playing or not outweighs people's limited wants to play warbird/javelins all the time. The need back in the day to separate the elims were accompanied by the hate of having to wait through a 30+ player b/elim to 10 just to get out voted in playing the ship you want next game. I should know, I was on the side of players who wanted the elims split in the first place years ago.

Now that the elims are back together, I can play wbs/javs all together with the same crowd of people and join conversations in spec i normally couldn't before.

Combine the arenas and run them at the same time? Are you really going to force our volunteer programmer to do more than he wants to? He could just up and leave things as it is or in shambles if he chooses to. Don't be so greedy- take what you could get and don't go making assumptions of what you think is easy or possible to program unless you're the one programming.

Reward pub bucks instead? Do elimers even care about those? What would an elimer who hangs out in elim do with pub bucks that are used in pub? Are we trying to solve the lack of players in elim or the lack of players in Trench Wars? If the latter, there are other threads on this subject. Right now we're trying to accommodate for the lack of players in the elims.

And offering donated money to top rated players is a plausible idea but it comes with it's own set of problems in my opinion that is worse than the problem it solves.

[WingZero]

Combine the arenas and run them at the same time? Are you really going to force our volunteer programmer to do more than he wants to? He could just up and leave things as it is or in shambles if he chooses to. Don't be so greedy- take what you could get and don't go making assumptions of what you think is easy or possible to program unless you're the one programming.

I appreciate the love (believe me I do), but I would rather spend a year programming something that is ideal rather than a day on something easy. It's not the amount of work required (I already have a system coded that could be easily adapted), it's that I simply disagree with the suggestion on matter of principle. <3, cheers =D

[Ruby]

"Most make their judgement call based upon which one has more activity. So making one un-populated is easy to do because now TW isn't as active as it was in years past, and sheer numbers takes over which arena you choose."

As I stated (for me personally) I wouldnt go to elim even if it had 50 people.

But alright, maybe im slow, but what exactly are you proposing?

"The old system would make the most sense. The idea of grouping community together in one elim is a better idea than to force wb's to play javs simply because elim is a barren wasteland now."

But..youre in favor of grouping them (the elims) together but not in favour of forcing them to pick between wb's or javs? But..isnt that exactly what youre doing?

Also other parts are good ideas but can be done without this change (making it easier for pubbies to wander into elim).

Anyway im not purposefully trying to whine here, Jason, im just giving my outlook on these changes.

P.S. Ruby's original post doesn't even make sense as Supreme pointed out...contradicts itself; how can the old method be a better alternative than making wbs play jav when thats pretty much what the old method is doing...rofl

... huh? Putting people into one arena creates interest and more populace which = more wb games as apposed to ?go elim that is empty 95% of the time. Fact. Also the momentum of good change and a focus on a community type atmosphere increases the number of games played. I've already played more WB matches in the past week than I have in the past month for ?go elim because there is always someone there. I would like to say what your saying is correct, but you're not looking at the big picture. When your view point is based off of selfishness it is skewed. Therefor your idea is derived from individualism, and it's difficult to make a logical argument based off of that in a small community based game.

Basic psychology 101 of any small community / town / grouping / game type atmosphere.

[Ruby]

If there were 30 people playing elim, splitting them up would make it 15 and 15 or 10 and 20 or whatever. Smaller in numbers attracts smaller crowds. Bigger numbers let people wonder "Hey what's going on over there."

I think the benefit of having more people in the arena whether they're playing or not outweighs people's limited wants to play warbird/javelins all the time. The need back in the day to separate the elims were accompanied by the hate of having to wait through a 30+ player b/elim to 10 just to get out voted in playing the ship you want next game. I should know, I was on the side of players who wanted the elims split in the first place years ago.

Now that the elims are back together, I can play wbs/javs all together with the same crowd of people and join conversations in spec i normally couldn't before.

Exactly.

[Supreme]

Well yeah, it just comes down on which of the two arguments is more important. And this is only an opinion. (As Sirius pointed out the numbers dont mean much).

But I suppose were outnumbered here so i rest my case in objection, so to say. Good luck though, I hope it works out.

[Sirius]

I honestly think both solutions offer means of alienating and drawing certain people, and both solutions provide legit arguments to support themselves in their own way. We'll just have to go off what seems like the most viable for the moment to those calling the shots and see what it leads to. Worst case scenario, after enough data has been gathered on the population of elim, games played daily etc, perhaps after a few months, the alternative scenario (in this case, splitting the arenas) can be attmpted for another few months to collect data and see which method is more popular or attracts more games/people, and then pick whichever does better.

[WingZero]

The elim beta test will officially conclude at the end of this weekend.

[Fork]

I still think they should work on making more cool features on pub so when a new player enters- they stick to the game for more than 10 mins. Though we've added pub money, we can ?buy things + have the new tutorial which is good... but possibly add in features like this:

- While in pub: Avert messages for baseelim/javduel/ events appear somewhere else on the screen instead of just a message in chat. Adverts could slide from right to left on top of the screen- or sliding up from the right side of the screen in diff colours etc... Yeh it could distract players but the idea is to capture the eyes of new players to get them to see there are other competitions available. Obviously this can be turned on and off.

- Or though it would take away a small portion of the screen- have a permanent thin advert messaging box above the energy bar (only in pub)... this again displays alot of things- including the standard baseelim/ javduel and event adverts (slides across screen) BUT also squad battles like: Dice and Sage are playing a twjd battle- ?go twjd to see. - This also can be turned off- the idea is for new players only to see it isnt just pub.

-When in spec: players are able to see a small rectangle box to the right that shows the top 3 active arenas currently (excluding pub). This can be turned off. (this is for new players that don't no ESC A option and they dont go through the tutorial.

-This is for a laugh: Mayb when someone gets a 2fer- 3fer- 4fer... a small txt is seen on the site of the blast- "2fer!"

[Dezmond]

Fork, this is a discussion about elim, not pub. Keep it on topic.