AXE Poid Immediately for Abusing Staff Powers, and Axe/Punish Paradise/Sheriff

[soup]

Oh you poor ignorant fool. If I had wanted to 'cover up' the situation, I could easily have just deleted threads completely leaving no trace. Not moved and left a link in this section pointing people to the other.

As the issue had been completely handled over a day before Soupero finally had a revelation and posted, in my opinion it was old useless news. However he had gone through the effort of putting in screen shots and all so I left the thread. Based on the very first non-staff comment I read in it, it did de-escalate into a "staff abusing again" thread, which was not the case as staff was not abusing powers.

The title was edited so that it was inline with people abusing a bug, not staff abusing powers, which was how the original title read.


Exalt all your forum spam is doing is showing how much of a personal attack you are trying to make this out to be. Thank you for making that clear without me having to even respond.

1. You threatened me in pub to remove it.

2. Why do you keep mentioning that I was 1 day late? What's the point? No one in TW has heard about it so I guess it's relevant.
I discovered the glitch, I reported it. Beasty helped me, Qan helped me. You didn't. Why exactly am I the bad guy here? Are you this desperate to get credit for what happened?

Also should I have posted all the information and details right after I noticed what Paradise and Sheriff were doing without anything to back me up? I could have been wrong and jumped the gun. I wanted to hear all the facts then publish the story. To be as coherent as one can be.

3. At the time, Sheriff and Paradise were on staff. So my title was correct. Two staffers DID abuse, I never said they did anything using their staff powers.




Your condescending tone towards me is very sad and rude. I'm a player who reported abuse and I helped staff. Yet you try to ridicule me and not even say thank you for helping TW out.

[Turban]

heh,

truthfully speaking i have to agree with poid on this one, exalt. i'm not sure why you're trying to lead a witch-hunt without any clear evidence and even going as far as threatening the zone and staff. while i don't like any of these three staffers you're trying to blackmail, they should remain in staff even after suspensions as long as they will stop misbehaving. for sure none of them should be axed from what happened yesterday, this may seem like i'm defending them but i can assure you that's not the case. i just don't like thoughtless posts like these.

i don't agree how poid handled the situation, that much is for sure. you really shouldn't be moving threads unless there's a good reason to do it. you also shouldn't change the title of a thread without a permission from the original poster. it's like you're openly telling us that there's some kind of censorship going on when staff or the future of staff is involved in the thread. we need to be able to openly discuss shit like this, please don't go around moving threads and renaming them just because you don't like the message.

moderate with moderation.

break over, back to work.

[Ephemeral]

Turb said it all.
eph

[Exalt]

Oh you poor ignorant fool. If I had wanted to 'cover up' the situation, I could easily have just deleted threads completely leaving no trace. Not moved and left a link in this section pointing people to the other.

As the issue had been completely handled over a day before Soupero finally had a revelation and posted, in my opinion it was old useless news. However he had gone through the effort of putting in screen shots and all so I left the thread. Based on the very first non-staff comment I read in it, it did de-escalate into a "staff abusing again" thread, which was not the case as staff was not abusing powers.

The title was edited so that it was inline with people abusing a bug, not staff abusing powers, which was how the original title read.


Exalt all your forum spam is doing is showing how much of a personal attack you are trying to make this out to be. Thank you for making that clear without me having to even respond.

You don't get it do you? You really don't understand. POiD... out of fairness to your ignorance (by the way, nothing was a personal attack against you beyond your abusing your position as a staff member, but your "poor ignorant fool" comment shows you simply are personally attacking me) I sent you a private message to explain things. Since I can see that you don't understand what exactly it is that you did to abuse your staff powers, I explained it to you privately so you can fix yourself and check yourself for the future.

Also, your intentions are quite clear, but your actions and the way you handled it are clearly how you fucked up. Like I said, out of fairness to your obvious ignorance, read your PM. I'm doing you a favor through that, so keep the name calling to a minimum. You're welcome by the way.

[Exalt]

heh,

truthfully speaking i have to agree with poid on this one, exalt. i'm not sure why you're trying to lead a witch-hunt without any clear evidence and even going as far as threatening the zone and staff.

My witch hunt is more or less against ANY staff member that abuses their position. It isn't a personal attack against paradise, sheriff, or even POiD. I actually like Paradise, but if he cannot act professionally, then he should not be a staff member. The same goes for POiD. Simply put, I can't stand staff abuse. We've seen it way too many times throughout the years Turban. POiD has played for longer than me even, so he should know better, but he is ignorant apparently. My witch hunt is simply that any staff member that abuses their power should be axed. I truly do believe that. I don't believe in the "mistakes happen" excuse, because abusing staff powers isn't a "mistake" that just happens. It is a willful act, and anyone that willfully does it has no business being a staff member. Staff are the ones who AT THE MOMENT are our "guardians" in keeping this game alive, and when those guardians are fucking retarded, I want them culled from the herd. This game needs people who can act right. If these people are not respectful of their position enough as policemen of trenchwars.. aka people that volunteer for a position to HELP THE PLAYERS instead of HURT the players (like soupero)... well... Why the fuck are they staff?

POiD got promoted even I heard, which makes me wonder why??? He is clearly ignorant of what public perception is of staff and the distrust all players have of staff members due to abuse. He is abusing his position, so he is making all the rest of staff members look bad, because every staff member is a representative of Trenchwars Staff as a group.


EDIT: You know what... after re-reading what you've said Turban, I do agree with you in a lot of ways. What I disagree with is that you think in the "no harm, no foul" sort of way. That is a respectful approach to take, and it certainly is probably the opinion of most staff members as well. I'm sure not many people take a hard-liner approach to things like this as I do, but I seriously do not like staff members that think it is okay on any level to abuse their positions. They VOLUNTEERED for the position. They don't get paid for it. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't do it. Let someone else try. Find someone more honest and more willing to do things the right way. I could understand if we are talking about axing CODERS and people that are basically rare and absolutely essential to the survival of this zone... but we are not. We are talking about players that were simply trained in how to use staff powers and things... aka TIME... but nothing special or unique about them beyond that. Time and knowledge can be given to absolutely any player in this game. HONESTY is not something I'm willing to fuck around with though.

[Ephemeral]

Exalt,
When presenting issues it is always far more effective to present them as ‘opportunities for improvement’ instead of presenting wrapped in flames. This is because it comes across as a personal agenda if you include a lot of criticism about person X, Y, or Z.

Soup made great point about a very real, tangible issue that needs to be improved;
Staffers should not be exploiting the game in any way shape or form.

You followed with another good point
There needs to be much more transparency from staff.

If we had limited our posts to just these issues (and simply mentioned the offending people involved) then it would not have come across as such a personal vendetta. Then no one would have had any legitimate reason to move any threads; IMO we opened the door for the thread to be moved by the nature, tone, and wording of the posts.

This was a real shame because now instead of keeping the focus on the important issues that he raised, we are sinking into a bunch of drama and bullshit.
eph

[Exalt]

Exalt,
When presenting issues it is always far more effective to present them as ‘opportunities for improvement’ instead of presenting wrapped in flames. This is because it comes across as a personal agenda if you include a lot of criticism about person X, Y, or Z.

Soup made great point about a very real, tangible issue that needs to be improved;
Staffers should not be exploiting the game in any way shape or form.

You followed with another good point
There needs to be much more transparency from staff.

If we had limited our posts to just these issues (and simply mentioned the offending people involved) then it would not have come across as such a personal vendetta. Then no one would have had any legitimate reason to move any threads; IMO we opened the door for the thread to be moved by the nature, tone, and wording of the posts.

This was a real shame because now instead of keeping the focus on the important issues that he raised, we are sinking into a bunch of drama and bullshit.
eph

I have to admit, you are right. I agree with it. In a lot of respects though, I wrote the title and added the x, y, and z to the equation because I simply was angry at the situation. It really pissed me off to see another instance of staff members doing something that I simply found to be wrong. It upset me, because it SEEMS like staff have legitimately decided as a collective to FINALLY start to become transparent and let themselves be policed by outside of the inner circle, even in a small way, through the Trenchwars Council idea.

To me, I truly started gaining some respect and hope for the future based on that simple premise: That staff are going to finally let go of the tight-knit closed-quarters choke hold they have over trenchwars and it's future by giving some of that power back to the players themselves. I do understand how so many people find it to be a weak and fruitless effort. They see it as being too little, too late. Almost all of he most staunch critics of the Council idea are former staff members who were wronged in some fashion during their time in staff. They saw how corrupt it was from the inside; they looked at the politics and realized that it all was a losing effort no matter how strong their dedication or good their intentions. Despite that, it gave me hope that perhaps... even if it only had a very minimal chance of succeeding... that staff were legitimately trying and that it really COULD succeed. It gave me hope for the future of a dying game; a game that has been dying very slowly in large part due to the bad leadership skills of some of our high-ranking staff members through the past and the present.

Knowing all of that (and anyone who reads the Council thread can tell how dedicated and hopeful I am of that idea), I find it absolutely essential that staff gain the trust of the player base back. That is the only way this Council idea can succeed. That is the only way that people with credibility, willpower, skill set, and the know how will join the Council and make it successful. Staff have to continue to make themselves transparent and continue to earn the player base's respect and trust back. ANY setback to that goal is a huge detriment and something that needs to be removed like a cancer.

So knowing that to be in the back of my mind at all times regarding staff in general and staff members as individuals, maybe now you can see how disappointed and enraged it made me to see 3 specific staff members do something that not only loses trust from the player base, but also reinforces the ages old stigma that staff have attached to them: that they are useless/ineffective/inefficient/untrustworthy/abusive. It was absolutely disheartening. It fucks everything up. In the big picture, maybe it doesn't ruin something like the Council. Maybe it doesn't become anything more than a small speed bump. Maybe. That being said, it is still a speed bump nonetheless. It is counter-productive to the health and the future of this zone and this game. It literally helps fuck up all the plans that staff might have of saving this game for the future.

Do you understand now why I was angry enough to rage against x, y, and z instead of taking a step back, looking at it from non-emotional position, and realizing that my point would be better suited to come across if I left things flame-free? Does it make more sense now of why I formed my post in this way, without thinking about how it would look like a vendetta against certain player(s) rather than proving an essential point in the process of staff gaining transparency and trust back?

Eph and Turban... you are both right in what you've said. You two are correct. Perhaps these players do not need to be axed. Perhaps there is "no harm, no foul" in the overall scheme of things. Perhaps I'm making this a much bigger deal than what it should be. Perhaps all of the things you've said are true. What if I AM right though in that staff just fucked something important up? What if I am justified in my fears that shit like this will help ruin this game's future? What if I AM right? Is this NOT a big deal then? IF I am right in those fears, IF I am justified in thinking this is a much bigger deal than you two allow it in your own minds... Then am I not correct in saying that these players are cancerous to the future of this zone and should therefore be removed from staff?

[Shaddowknight]

they should remain in staff even after suspensions as long as they will stop misbehaving. for sure none of them should be axed from what happened yesterday

Barring no prior incidents, you would be correct. However, I will inform you that Sheriff is no longer a member of TW Staff.

[Ephemeral]

Exalt,
First, staff was exploiting a bug in the zone. The most obvious issue here is that this sets a horrid example for everyone. If it is ok for staffers to exploit than why shouldn’t a player feel ok doing it too? This is what Soup’s post should have been about but unfortunately he included some more emotional content.

This opened the door for the thread to be moved. This was a lame move but in my opinion there were legitimate reasons to do so, there IS trash talk in the original post. Again, a great opportunity to make an important point and possible improvement lost because of the drama.

Second, we move on to your posts. Demanding transparency as an improvement is huge, something that absolutely needs to be done for the reasons you have outlined. Wrapping it up in the drama of ‘so and so did this or that’ only served to derail the importance of the improvement.

If we keep threads and posts about improvement they will ALWAYS be right. (This is an effective method for arguing anything to anyone at anytime.) I suppose it could be that if a particular staffer had had a repeated history or trend of doing stupid shit than it could be a worthwhile post; but even this is shaky ground for someone who in on the outside looking in.

What we have here would be the same as if stockholders descended upon a shareholders’ meeting and demanded the removal of an executive in a company. While clearly a sign that something is broken in the company the shareholder have no fucking idea about the operational things going on in the company.

Likewise, while we know that something is royally fucked up with staff we should not assume that we have a full handle on the all the ‘operational’ aspects of running the zone organization. Instead of being specific about person x, y, or z we should be focused on the badly broken the ‘hiring and firing’ process that has existed for staff.

It is THIS that has resulted in staffers who see nothing wrong with exploiting bugs in the zone. People get hired and promoted through the staff system for the wrong reasons. This is NOT to say that every person who has been in this system is corrupt or a dickhead. But the ‘hiring and firing’ process should be ALL about finding people whose primary focus is ‘helping the zone’ and not about empowerment. The quota system is a fucking joke, it is a lazy, bullshit way that someone put in place to promote people ‘who were doing their jobs’. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The correct way to promote people is to sit them down every XX amount of days/months and review the job they have done. You give them the credit they deserve for the good things they have done. More importantly you discuss what they need to achieve to get to the next level above their current position.

But making threads that simply remove ‘bad’ staffers doesn’t do shit for the zone in the long run. If you want to make substantial long term improvements, and not keep revisiting this same issue over and over but with different people, than stop making this about person X, Y, and Z. This fucking zone does the same stupid shit over and over and expects different results (like the stupid way the TWL rules are written). We have to break out of this pattern and start looking to make REAL improvements.
eph

[Flion]

Can I ask you one thing... how is the topic soup made trash talk? Staffers abusing bugs is trash talk now?

It's thrash talk because soup has turned the thread into a call out/bandwagon/circlejerk thread that makes no sense. Yes the staff were removed but it is at the end of the day, soupero talking thrash about someone. If he would like to properly go through and ask for poids head then he needs to mail the complaints department. By putting into a sub section of a forum that is about the improvement of the zone then he is doing it completely wrongly and I support Poid in his actions.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

It's thrash talk because soup has turned the thread into a call out/bandwagon/circlejerk thread that makes no sense. Yes the staff were removed but it is at the end of the day, soupero talking thrash about someone. If he would like to properly go through and ask for poids head then he needs to mail the complaints department. By putting into a sub section of a forum that is about the improvement of the zone then he is doing it completely wrongly and I support Poid in his actions.

Soupero exposed these staffers for abusing the system.
He didnt talk trash cause its the truth, these (ex)staffers did abuse the system.
Poid tried to cover it up and soupero noticed this so yeah he will spread around links of the topic,
so people will know what's up! You can't blame the newspaper bringing stuff under the magnifying glass.
Everyone who can look at this case from a objective view knows poid handled wrong.

[Ricko]

I'm fully behind the punishments handed out to Paradise and Sheriff; what they have done is further tarnish an already delicate staff reputation. How you can sit there abusing the system when you know you have a position of responsibility is beyond me and frankly I'm disappointed in those guys.

How ever I think what Poid did is far less a crime than is being made out to be - he saw a thread posted in the tw forums that potentially will turn people away from the game so he moved it in the interest of the game. All he has done is move the thread, he hasn't deleted it. I'm not agreeing or promoting that as staff we can do what we want and hide issues that occur, but Poid probably did this as a gut reaction to a forum thread that was getting ugly and potentially damaging so he moved it from the public TW section of the forums, I very much doubt he was intentionally hushing the voices of the public or protecting 2 staffers who abused their power.

I might be completely wrong and Poid did do it all with bad intentions, but that is for Poid to tell you guys. As some of you clearly have poor opinions of Poid you might be distorting what actually happened to fit what you think happened based on your own personal reservations against Poid.

We are all here for our love of the game, why sit there and spend hours fantasising over space politics that might never have actually happened? Get in pub and shoot some blue/white dots.

[Rasaq]

I don't remember anyone getting punished for laying 16 mines down in the old pub with the bug in the safety zone. I got caught doing that once and was told to change ship and discontinue using it. I wasn't registered to forums either so maybe people did that I'm unaware of.

[Wazzaaa.nl]

How ever I think what Poid did is far less a crime than is being made out to be - he saw a thread posted in the tw forums that potentially will turn people away from the game so he moved it in the interest of the game. All he has done is move the thread, he hasn't deleted it. I'm not agreeing or promoting that as staff we can do what we want and hide issues that occur, but Poid probably did this as a gut reaction to a forum thread that was getting ugly and potentially damaging so he moved it from the public TW section of the forums, I very much doubt he was intentionally hushing the voices of the public or protecting 2 staffers who abused their power. I might be completely wrong and Poid did do it all with bad intentions, but that is for Poid to tell you guys. As some of you clearly have poor opinions of Poid you might be distorting what actually happened to fit what you think happened based on your own personal reservations against Poid. We are all here for our love of the game, why sit there and spend hours fantasising over space politics that might never have actually happened? Get in pub and shoot some blue/white dots.

A gut reaction? This is no reason to move a topic to Trash talk or to rename the topic without asking permission to the original poster.Forums are made to have discussions and to be transparent (whenever they can be damaging or not) esp in these times of TW, TW isn't the USA government and Poid isnt the NSA.

We are all here for our love of the game, why sit there and spend hours fantasising over space politics that might never have actually happened? Get in pub and shoot some blue/white dots.

Dunno about you but im in pub atm, dont see ricko flying around and shooting white dots

[Ricko]

I'm at work, it's hard for some of us being employed

I probably didn't explain that correctly by using 'gut feeling' but I'm basically saying maybe he did it without thinking of the re-percussions or that there would be any; he might have done it without thinking it through properly as opposed to this covert covering up theory that is being thrown around.