BanID #2819 - requesting answer from M_M God

[Vys]

Just let the guy play the game we all religiously play. He's put a lot of time into the game whether he's a dick or not is irrelevant. Give him a banfree for a year, if he cheats again and then lifeban. If he breaks any rule or racism etc and then reban him for the remainder of the ban. Case closed

[Zeebu]

and im not opposed to that as long as he shuts the hell up and gets along with people

otherwise, why would anyone bother?

[Zeebu]

at this point, hes asking for a favor. you dont hoot, holler and demand things. you ask. nicely. start off by being a part of the community without being a twat for a bit.

if that goes against his online persona, fuck him.

[Ephemeral]

Just let the guy play the game we all religiously play. He's put a lot of time into the game whether he's a dick or not is irrelevant. Give him a banfree for a year, if he cheats again and then lifeban. If he breaks any rule or racism etc and then reban him for the remainder of the ban. Case closed

IMO if we love the game then we care about how we spend our precious resources (time and money). If we care about how we spend our resources then we would rather see them consumed on productive things instead of wasting them on idiots who exploit.

We already did what you suggest, he was given a second chance. You are making a case for a ‘3 strike’ approach, fuck up a third time and then you get lifeban. Just curious, what makes you think that third time will be the charm?
eph

[fiS]

I think MM has pretty much nailed it. I admit, I do not know the whole story behind this, and I doubt that you guys do.

Also, someone said "he didn't cheat in TWL final but in gatez2 with 5 people, doesn't matter" - But it does. Trench Wars Rules clearly say that NO CHEATING is tolerated. Doesn't matter where, how, when, with how many people. Else we might just end up with a lot of people cheating at dead times in pub or wherever because "it just doesn't matter, nobody cares". There MUST be a strict border to cheating and we have one and it's being enforced. Else where would we end up....?

Also 2pac, I don't think anyone is asking you crawl into someone's butt. And I do also see a change in how how you are approaching the whole ban situation (in the forums) differently right now, less hate, less anger. But a bit of insight is what is lacking. You should be at least admitting to what you've done and that it was stupid instead of only looking at the flaws at SSC/TW ban side and requesting their retirement. (You of course have a right to criticize that. But take a look at yourself, too)

[Hydride]

You still evaded instead of having it corrected through proper means (assuming it would have actually been up).
Pro move, admitting to evading though. See ya in 2015!

That is the kind of attitude why people hate staff.

No reason to be so condescending towards him. He has some legit points. He made the tickets, but never got responded too, and he also had a ban extended on the same day it was supposed to be up... seems a little intense to me.

With the game in the state it is, not everything should be so black and white. When you act like that, it just makes people hate staff even more. And they should. Kind of a dink way to go about it. You're not Rudy.


Also, the rules are so outdated... Let's get real here. I understand fis' point of having a strict rule set in place where there is no room for "Well we shouldnt ban him because"
But the length of ban shouldn't be 1 year netban. By the time the kid gets back this game could be dead. It's why we changed our rules for racism, etc. Before we would just ban a player. Now we silence them or simply lock them out of bombing ships. Why can't we also change the rules for cheating. Cause we don't really see people using hacks very often. 1 year just seems so over the top for these current times, even if its multiple offense. If it's a pattern of he gets off, cheats every single time.. then yeah sure, ban for life. But goddamn. Give the dude a break LOL.

[M_M God]

Well I think your sources aren't that solid, Exalt. Let me try again to clarify some things with you, 2pacz can either correct it if he thinks we're wrong or admit to it and have sorrow of his past actions and ask for some sort of last chance type of thing: He was banned for 3 months in August 2013, evaded the same day, then evaded again on September 6th 2013 and saw his banned up to its current state. And that was actually pretty lenient from our side, seeing he's already had a previous netban and a current one up. Instead of evading/blaming SSC and TW BanG Ops and lowering himself to make a complete fool out of himself on the forums, he could have tried to sit out his 3 months ban and he would have already been done with. Or, come talk to or email one of us sysops/banG ops and see what we would be able to do for him in case he would promise us he would see this as his last chance. See what i'm getting at here?
Also, oo.oo had been staff in TW before, then moved to DSB, worked himself up to Event Sysop there before he moved back to TW. I'm just saying, you never know what type of people you recruit in your staff/squad/etc, you only find out their real personality after actually giving them the chance. If we hadn't, good staffers would be hard to find nowadays..

[2pac]

Well I think your sources aren't that solid, Exalt. Let me try again to clarify some things with you, 2pacz can either correct it if he thinks we're wrong or admit to it and have sorrow of his past actions and ask for some sort of last chance type of thing: He was banned for 3 months in August 2013, evaded the same day, then evaded again on September 6th 2013 and saw his banned up to its current state. And that was actually pretty lenient from our side, seeing he's already had a previous netban and a current one up. Instead of evading/blaming SSC and TW BanG Ops and lowering himself to make a complete fool out of himself on the forums, he could have tried to sit out his 3 months ban and he would have already been done with. Or, come talk to or email one of us sysops/banG ops and see what we would be able to do for him in case he would promise us he would see this as his last chance. See what i'm getting at here?
Also, oo.oo had been staff in TW before, then moved to DSB, worked himself up to Event Sysop there before he moved back to TW. I'm just saying, you never know what type of people you recruit in your staff/squad/etc, you only find out their real personality after actually giving them the chance. If we hadn't, good staffers would be hard to find nowadays..

You have yet again failed to realize that my 1st ban I over-served by 9 months. When that was my 1st time cheating in this game in the zone I staffed in previously. I got banned a year for that and served a year. Also "come talk to or email one of us sysops/banG ops" How can I contact you guys by email I can't you guys have no emails listed. The only reason I evaded the ban was to get SSC Netops to respond to my Tickets why else would I want to evade the ban I'm pretty sure they would have found out who I was and you guys did, cause I talked to staff then once they saw me evade to get help, you guys extended my ban.


M_M God> then evaded again on September 6th 2013 and saw his banned up to its current state.

That above is incorrect my ban changed on November 17th 2013 thats when it was extended to Aug 17th 2014. I then evaded ban and ask L_E what was up, she said she had previously talked with staff from DS, a zone which was dead. Thus ban was upgraded and my NETban was extended.

Other members who have played this game have done one WAY worse than me and continue to keep playing and they know who they care and have gotten away with it before a mod could get involved.


SSC Netops need to see the rules and it say:
Cheating - Performing any action that an unmodified client is incapable of performing. Developing, distributing, or promoting cheat software. Minimal 90 day net ban for first offence.

Minimal 90 days. That ban was for 1 year and I didn't evade that ban. I served that ban from a dead zone and then when I was released that zone was GONE off of zone lists. Then I started to play TW. Also regarding my TW history - I'm an active player - http://twd.trenchwars.org/profile/6409/squadhistory We started around the same time EPH.

Also Zeebu please stop ruining my thread, I don't need another troll double posting in my thread to up their post count thank you

I would like to get touch with Demonic and get her/his take on this.

Thank again to my supporters. Mythril thats one of my boys big shout outs to him. Big ups to my boy Raazi, GTL brah we comin back soon, and shout outs to the rest of my boys, thanks you.

[Morh]

It's not very smart to use cheats in TW. Especially after being banned for it in the past. How he lashed out on the forums after getting banned again, were also not very smart. But, no harm were done and people have gotten away with worse. Either let him back or reban cheaters like vys, mythril, delectable and so on. people were lenient with them, why not be lenient with this guy too? Hell I'v used wallhacks and speedhacks in TW pub in the past, evaded multiple bans, and I never even got banned for it. Also, about the whole hosting and distributing of cheats from Wingmasters homepage accusations back in 2005? yes it were true. Why don't you ban me now since past transgressions can haunt you forever, right?

[M_M God]

Well, that you were banned for a year for your first offense is nothing we can control nor decided upon. That was done solely by SSC Ops. We however do follow protocol when you were netbanned a second time, which is a year ban. Also, if you could have just taken the time to look around on either Trenchwars.org (http://trenchwars.org/index.php?v=staff) OR contacted us via forums, which you obviously still use/have access to, you could have easily contacted us, instead of trying to evade to appearantly contact us, which only caused you to either get your ban extended or to be looked upon as frequent evader. I already asked Demonic to give her opinion on this matter.

[2pac]

Well, that you were banned for a year for your first offense is nothing we can control nor decided upon. That was done solely by SSC Ops. We however do follow protocol when you were netbanned a second time, which is a year ban. Also, if you could have just taken the time to look around on either Trenchwars.org (http://trenchwars.org/index.php?v=staff) OR contacted us via forums, which you obviously still use/have access to, you could have easily contacted us, instead of trying to evade to appearantly contact us, which only caused you to either get your ban extended or to be looked upon as frequent evader. I already asked Demonic to give her opinion on this matter.

Well SSC ops failed at that and fail to respond to my tickets what do you think I would do evade obviously.

I have emailed twbans@n0-spam@gmail.com only to receive NO response.

No one even responded me on the forums I messaged demonic, LE, bunch of staff. It's a dead end road.

I'm not trying to bullshit you if you want look up my forum sent messages. I have nothing to hide from staff. It's very easy to *kick*ban *netban someone but very hard to unban an active player in the community who has donel less harm then couple of the staff in tw and couple players that continue to still play this game and thats what I'm learning now.

Thank you.

[Exalt]

I think the first thing that needs to be acknowledged here on all parties is this:

1. 2pac: You have to admit that you've been wanting to get the attention of the sysops of TW like MM God and Demonic, and while Demo hasn't responded in the thread as of yet, you DID get the attention and acknowledgement of the situation through MM God (who is i the title of your thread). This alone means you achieved what your original intention was. In a way, this kind of counter-acts your point of evading in order to contact one of them in the first place. MM God is correct in his point that even if you could not get a response through emails (which I will also attest to the fact that those emails are either A) not read regularly if at all and/or B) are read by the wrong people, usually the BanG Ops that banned you originally, such as Lefty or Dezmond. This was a problem back in the day of Rudy being the BanG op, since Rudy was known to be a pretty big e-hardass in terms of bans, and there was no getting through to anyone above him due to him consistantly sabotaging any efforts to go above his head through those emails. This was the case in the past at the very least. I don't know how it is now though, since I have not been banned in TW for a very, very long time now, and never for long periods. The only times I remember being banned in the past was for dumb things like racism when I was a 14 year old (or around there) pre-teen who didn't have much respect for authority anyways at that point. Anyways, you clearly had the option of using forums to get in touch with staff, and as you can see, that option HAS worked. You've gained the ear of the sysops in TW, and staff in TW have been pretty transparent through this whole ordeal so far. You can't really deny this fact at this point. Therefore, MM God does have a point when he states that you had other alternatives than to just evade if you wanted to get in touch with the people that had the power to get you unbanned.

2. 2pac: The way you have come across in the past was very... abrasive to say the least, in that you basically kept calling staff jackasses/morons/idiots/useless/etc and politically speaking, that isn't the right way to go about things when you want someone to do you a favor. Hell, even in game, when you asked me and a few other players to look into your case and either give support or to at least state our opinions on your case, you even cussed me out a few times because I wasn't going full-fledged ape shit on staff for not straight up unbanning you on the spot. While I've probably made my reputation known well enough as not being a huge supporter of everything staff have done in the past or even continue to do nowadays, I cannot and will not go against my own personal belief system, and one of those beliefs currently is that I respect what staff have been trying to do lately, and I also respect a lot of the current crop of staff members TW has nowadays. I certainly don't agree with all of them, and I definitely still get into disagreements/arguments with a few of them on various issues as well, but I'm not about to go bat shit crazy and say "FUCK ALL STAFF, YOU ARE ALL FUCKING USELESS, BLAH BLAH BLAH" when that simply isn't true. I'd lose all of my own credibility doing that, and I would be going against my own personal beliefs and ruining my own character in a failed attempt to get you unbanned. I also don't agree with the things you have done (like cheating) that got you banned in the first place, and I definitely don't agree with the way you've been acting in forums in the past. To be completely honest, when you first asked me to look at your case and possibly lend my support to your cause, I hesitated originally mainly due to the way I saw you treat absolutely everyone on the forums who didn't give their complete and utter blind support for your cause, despite the way you were acting. I'm not a little kid anymore, so I don't troll just to troll these days. I try to state my honest opinions, and even though I come off as abrasive and less than cordial to a lot of people when I highly disagree with them, I won't completely bash everyone simply because they disagree. You have to take other people's opinions into account to, and that was one of the things you failed to do in the past. Only recently have you changed your tune a little bit, and I do think that will help you in the long run if you keep this up.

3. MM God, I agree with what you've been saying, and yes, you are probably correct that some of my sources are wrong or have been highly misleading. I won't deny that. I can only go by the things I've been told or have heard through the grapevine, so that is what I was going with. Until you and other staff members corrected me, I had no other way to know what the other side of the story was. My opinions have changed a bit due to that, but I also believe there are some truths in what 2pac is saying as well. I don't think he has many reasons to lie about what really happened at this point. Like you've said, he could probably do better by simply admitting he fucked up, agreeing with everything you've said, and then ask for mercy from staff members. He continues to stick to his original story, and because of that (without any changes to that story, like most liars tend to do), I think he may be telling the truth in a lot of his points.

Knowing all of this, I would like two things to happen:

1. I want 2pac to basically admit his wrongdoings, and for him to give at least an acknowledgement that he DID fuck up. He DID do wrong, despite the arena, despite the circumstances, and despite whether what he did hurt anyone or not. He still did something that was against the rules, and because of that, he needs to own up to it, admit he did it, and apologize. Just like anyone who makes a mistake, be it a regular player or staff, once that mistake is made (and we ALL make mistakes, it doesn't matter who we are), that mistake should be acknowledged, admitted to, and 2pac should give reasons and a statement to why he will NOT repeat those mistakes. This is just something that should be done either way, because it is the decent thing to do as a human being.

2. Assuming 2pac is able to do this, and is able to admit his wrongdoings and will generally give a statement saying he will NOT repeat his previous mistakes, I believe staff should be lenient enough to forgive his past transgressions and simply give the guy one more chance. You could always watch him closely, and let us not forget, should he cheat again in the future, any regular player would almost certainly do a ?cheater call on him without hesitation, since nobody in this game likes cheaters. Once he does that, do what vys said and go ahead and lifeban the guy. After his 3rd strike, I don't see why anyone would be on 2pac's corner after that. Consider it parole of a convicted criminal. Even convicted criminals have chance of parole. They get sentences to a set amount of years and tend to do half the time on good behavior. While I wouldn't consider everything 2pac has said and done in the past as "good behavior" I will say that due to the circumstances of what occurred on both ends, staff should show a bit of mercy and parole the guy from his sentence a bit early. SHOULD he fuck up ONE MORE TIME, then like others have said, go ahead and lifeban the guy and throw away the key. You'll never see another person give a fuck about his case after that, and you won't have to worry about anyone writing long forum posts in defense of him.

If you want past references to players that we gave parole/mercy to, look at delectable, mythril, vys, and others. All of them were convicted of cheating in the past, and all of them were given harsh sentences that were not served to the full extent. Even Vys was given a lifeban sentence at one point, and staff decided to finally let him go after a while. Vys has never cheated since, and actually has been a pretty productive player ever since then. The same goes for a player like Mythril, who is a very respected player in almost all corners of TW. He is well liked, his opinions matter to a lot of people, and he definitely never cheated or even thought about cheating ever since his once incident of doing it inside .?go Base or whatever it was. Delectable cheated in TWLD before, and I remember it clearly due to him doing it against whatever squad i was in during that year's TWL. At the time, I wanted the guy lifebanned forever, because his cheating helped my squad lose a very close game. Despite that, Delectable got let off the hook eventually, and he has never cheated again (as far as I know) after that fact. See the pattern here?

I think staff should give 2pac one more chance, provided he does give that apology, admits his mistakes, and promises to not continue making those mistakes. If he was able to not cheat for 5 years from 2009 until recently, then I believe he can at least stop his cheating again for another 4 or 5 years, and at that point... are we even sure this game will be alive for it to matter? If it is, well.. 2pac would be pretty fucking stupid to cheat AGAIN knowing it would cause him to be lifebanned with absolutely NOBODY in his corner for the 3rd time. So... that's my proposal. I'm not saying staff or anyone else should listen to me, but I believe it would be a fair thing, and it would show that staff can be merciful, and show that players like 2pac can change as well. Everyone deserves another chance in life, no matter what the crime is, as long as it isn't something like murder. 2pac didn't murder anyone, and his crime in the grand scheme of things wasn't that horrible. It did not affect any other player in a negative aspect other than himself. Let the guy have his one last chance.

There you have my 2 cents worth.

[Oranje]

Would like to remind staff: Method, delectable

[cash.MONay]

ROFL. My man 2pac. Say waddup to Paky. I support u brahh. FREE 2PAC!

But I agree with Vys. Yes he cheated and yes he is a prick at times but we got a dying population. Let him free. Plz and ty.

[cash.MONay]

Would like to remind staff: Method, delectable

Sup sup qpr? Long time no see. We need more of your troll posts. Maybe some disagreements with kthx too. Lol.