DISTENSION Ship-Balance Proposal

[ogron]

[ogron]

If the image is cut off for you, click this link for the pic:

https://i.imgur.com/Qsr2MKw.png

:stupid:

[roxxkatt]

did you really waste that much time making a picture telling people to remove everything that isnt guns from every ship

lmao

[roxxkatt]

what makes this even more hilarious is that half your information is wrong because you never played longer than 5 minutes

[The Great Turret]

Your proposal is basically to remove a powerful ability from four different ships, while only offering replacement abilities for the levi. While these changes might encourage more tactful play and less area-effect mayhem, the nerfed ships really need something to replace what they lost. Otherwise, the ships themselves lose their appeal. Have to remember, these "no skill" abilities don't exist as a given. People have to earn them by playing.

The levi proposal sounds pretty neat, but then I'm a sucker for utility ships. I really can't imagine levis without bombs though. Teamkilling is a problem, but not having bombs at all? That thing had better get a lot of bricks to play with. (inb4 levis replace sharks)

As for the terrier, they get hosed by high level weasels whether they have radar or not, which brings me to a point about xradar. If we're trying to make harassing terrs more difficult, we need to expand the number of ships that have radar, not limit it.

With that said, I can see what you're going for: Turn the levi into a weasel-counter. Heck, if they have a supply of tiny bricks, they could even patch up the holes in the FR that x's like to sneak through. A levi with tiny bricks could also create a pseudo-obstacle-course by dropping little blocks in the middle of the FR. I imagine the levi making use of, say, 2-tile bricks. They can't halt an entire team, but putting them in the right spot can sure foul up the enemy. Rushing brickwarp levis will become a thing.

A concern about turning levi into a primarily utility ship is that it will likely become one of the shy-away ships like terr and shark. That is, the levi will become a ship that every team needs but "no one" wants to play.

Care would also have to be taken to make sure that a team of levis can't brick-win, though, especially in conjunction with tac ops.

Conclusion: The proposed idea for a new levi's role sounds neat, but it is so drastically different from the current levi that it doesn't feel right to simply make that change. It is surely not why people play levi, and I believe many would be unwilling to adapt.

For jav, spider, and terr: Again, they really need something fun to replace what they lose. It's the same reasoning as for the levi - people play those ships looking forward to what they can eventually do with it. Remove that, and there's less reason to be excited about your ship.

***

That was my feedback for the time you spent on this proposal. Settings like those you provided sound like they would be neat to try at least temporarily. Say, run them for a week, then put them back the way they were. I don't feel that these changes are necessary for this reset, but that's probably because I'm still having loads of fun with my shipset

p.s. first post

[Frightful]

Jav: Remove rockets AND shrap? Yeah, that sounds really fun.

[Spock!]

To me it sounds like you just want to turn Distension into slightly different version of ?go Base. Part of the fun of Distension is the crazy sh!t that happens with thors and decoys and bricks etc.

Sure, each ship has its annoying bits to it, but I haven't found any of these abilities/qualities something that can't be countered.

I do like the idea of allowing more ships to have x-radar though........

[project dragon]

It's hard to say these certain skills are IMBA or OP, when the players in the ships are such high leveled. That being said, lvl 2 bombs could use some splash radius tweaking to make the bombs still viable but not affect too many players. Also, IIRC, levi and shark shrap are fixed, but jav shrap is random? If jav shrap could be fixed direction that could help a little bit in being able to dodge the shrap and eliminate the unfortunate chance of being killed by shrap that stacks on-top of itself. Possibly tweaking rocket speed could help as well, or at least the effect of when you get repped.

Levi is difficult because it is currently the only ship in distension that is not in line with the standard tw ship settings (respectively..). Taking the bomb away would further deviate from that as well. The brick is an interesting idea because it would help utilize the "support" side of the levi, but something would have to compensate for that. Perhaps the removal of shrap upgrades, since levi's have not been known to have shrap? Or maybe the port, though a port-brick strategy could synergize okay.

The terr emp is the very last addon to the terr that is not an upgrade item. I think that is probably why the attack is OP. If we were to remove it, what OP/endgame item would replace it? A cheaper 2nd burst upgrade? Maybe put the brick on it? A rocket or quick lvl1 bombs? Also, xradar is basically the first upgrade you can get on a terr, so it should be extremely easy for new terrs to just equip it.

[LF]

I personally wouldn't take away the very best abilities of every ship (Super/Emp/lvl 2 bombs/etc). More and more people are high ranks now, thus unlocking the best abilities of each ship. It takes countless hours of playing time to "earn" the right to be so annoying and to take that from players after putting so much work into achieving it would be wrong. Out of your ideas the one I liked the most was a bricking levi. X's earn bricks (3 tiles) eventually but its kind of a depressing "ultimate weapon" as it doesn't come until the later levels (lvl 50 is the first one) I think removing levi shrap and replacing it with SINGLE TILE bricks would be nifty, as with 3-4 brick upgrades you could place bricks to block entry to base/flag in single base games, or leave a path that pursuers have to navigate around or wait for them to dissolve. Levi bombs don't need shrap to be successful, as they are rarely aimed at actual people anyways, but instead a nearby wall in a spray n pray attempt to emp as many people as possible. 100% of the players who religiously play levi have no clue how to use them anyways and more often than not emp own team more than enemy, so I wouldn't nerf them any more than the shrap for brick thing. The only other nerf I would suggest would be the recharge rate for X WHILE CLOAKED, and this is coming from the #2 weasel atm. I don't think cloak alone should drain energy, but I do think it should greatly decrease how quickly it recharges. As it stands now I don't think its any different cloaked or uncloaked, and if it is different then its miniscule. I can tank a level 2 from a terr, shoot a level 3, cloak again, recharge enough in about 3 seconds to tank another yellow all while harassing flag/terr, while I think it makes more sense to retreat to recharge before heading back for more. Oh...and I'd reduce the damage of shrapnel, but not remove it... Shrapnel is stacking on top of themselves and a lvl 2 jav bomb with shrap that hit half a screen away has killed my terr with almost 3000 energy

[roxxkatt]

With that said, I can see what you're going for: Turn the levi into a weasel-counter.

it already is and has been for ages
its one of the really only 2 anti wzl ships
wzl gets free xradar, and lev can have it on for a fair amount, and emp forces wzl to instantly decloak, and large bomb splash usually is -50% for them while near

[ogron]

what makes this even more hilarious is that half your information is wrong because you never played longer than 5 minutes

I have the most powerful spider in the game, so accomplishing that in 5 minutes is a really impressive feat.

I think removing levi shrap and replacing it with SINGLE TILE bricks would be nifty,

Yeah that's certainly an interesting notion, I think the Brick is a feature that has been underused (it's apparently on the X) and should really be a part of a certain shipset. If not the Levi, perhaps the WB or the Lanc -- probably the Lanc. JAMAL has proven the wb is quite powerful even though no one at the moment seems very OP with with (Afri, Wicket666 are pretty underwhelming.) The Lanc's firebloom ability or whatever seems like a huge letdown for reaching such a high level, perhaps Bricking would be a superior alternative.

the nerfed ships really need something to replace what they lost. Otherwise, the ships themselves lose their appeal.

Four ships which I don't play were left unnerfed, and the only one without any compensation is the spider, which is the only ship I play. Levis get several new abilities, Javs get to be the only ships with bombs, and the Terr only loses an ability they can use every 10 minutes it doesnt really affect their combat effectiveness.

That said, I can certainly understand what you're saying in terms of compensation and what people have earned, that perhaps that wouldn't be fair to them.

That being said, lvl 2 bombs could use some splash radius tweaking to make the bombs still viable but not affect too many players.

Yeah they messed around with the radius. They nerfed it too hard at one point, but right now i feel like the L2 radius is too large. I dodge and am far away yet still get hit by the blast and often die. It's compounded by the insta-kill shrap or EMP.

=====================

I guess perhaps we're approaching the balance issues from different standpoints philosophically. The reticence from the responses seem to be of taking away things people have earned, while I'm looking at it more in terms of creating more fun and engaging gameplay. I love my Super to death on spider, it's insanely fun, but I'm willing to sacrifice something I've earned and enjoy and is a signature part of my ship with the intention of taking away a few other things that I feel without would create a better basing game with a lot less spam in the FR, which has become considerable.

I can definitely see the counterpoint that if you remove these things Distension becomes less unique and more like ?go base. I guess that's a question of whether or not that's a bad thing? I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer, and I'm not saying the proposal I made should be implemented, but I certainly think it's something worth discussing on forums considering a solid amount of us play it several hours a week.

It's no skin off of my back keeping the settings exactly as they are, I get my kills either way, turn on my music and zone out. I just feel like a reduction in spam would be beneficial to the flow of the game and flagroom battles, which are the heart of the game. I don't think anyone will deny some of the FR battles have become a brainless spammy bullet/bomb/shrap/emp laden shitshow -- I guess it's just a question of whether you're looking at it from a point of view of either 1) people have earned these powerful abilities and deserve to use them, or 2) the game should be more balanced, skill-based, and less spammy.

I think they're both valid points, but so far the responses seem to favor the former.

[The Great Turret]

I can definitely see the counterpoint that if you remove these things Distension becomes less unique and more like ?go base. I guess that's a question of whether or not that's a bad thing?

I play Distension, but ?go base hasn't interested me enough to become a regular baser. That may give a hint as to my persuasion on the matter.

In general I view the goal of "balance" of Distension being less about defining each ship's influence on the game, and more about making sure that each ship feels increasingly OP as it ranks up. In many ways it is a stat-based game, where bad performance can be made up for by a strong ship. At the same time, not everyone uses their ship to its full potential.

Wbs are OP for their mobility and tankiness. Javs are OP for their rockets, splash, and shrap. Spiders are OP for their supers (to say the least). Levs are OP for their tankiness and emp. Terrs are OP for their supply of ports and bursts. Weasels are OP cause they are difficult to hunt. Lancs... eh

Lancs are actually pretty underwhelming. Buff lancs!

The point here is, the source of most of my frustration is usually in the incompetence of my teammates - they who are using their very capable ships in a less-than-capable manner. Many ships seem to have at least some ridiculous aspect to them, but I don't believe there is a single ship that can simply win games, at least not with a sufficiently large group of players.

As a terr, the ridiculous abilities people use to [try to] kill me are really just hiding the limitations (note i didn't say weakness) of the ship itself. As an example, just about every new terr that I talk to complains that OGRON's spider is really scary because of super. However, since I also have a yellow spider, I understand OGRON's limits better than most, and I don't have to freak out when my side of the base fills with yellows.

I would go as far as to chalk up a lot of what people think is "too OP" as just distension-naivety. It's understandable, though; to intimately know how a ship will perform, you pretty much have to play it or talk to someone who does. No one has ranked every ship to 50, and so it's safe to say that most people don't -really- know how each ship performs. That creates many frustrating moments as people aren't prepared to deal with what is thrown at them.

Keep in mind, this makes no comment on the claim that battles are filled with too much spam for a proper playing experience. I don't have much of an opinion on that.

And to think... people want qan to raise the player limit?

[roxxkatt]

super spids ezier to kill than regular spids, because theyre not trying to dodge

[roxxkatt]

qan cant raise the limit because tw is crap and will die

[project dragon]

Increasing the player limit, and I guess the eventual removing of the limit will probably raise the question of ship balance once again as we will have more things happening in such a confined space (flag room). Will something like the current pub base system have to be implemented (doors open, revealing a larger base), or maybe even a third base? The current 2-base map works well for the player cap we have now, just some future thought.