Elim and Baseelim - Staff please take notice

[Attacks]

Combining Elim and Baselim hasn't worked. Other than making people afk in elim.

Nobody plays elim anymore.

I roam around public outside base, and see the same 4 or 5 warbirds playing because they have nowhere else to go. By which point they get ported into base and then get bored, I see new players want to play warbird get sorta good at it, then give up, their is no step up for them other than twdd which they will get out classed.

If we made elim with more announcements, sorted out the broken ranking system, and made it just a ?go elim I am 100% convinced I can get a user base going, Don't believe me? well its not going to make things worse than they are.

Why is this important?

Elimination is inclusive, nobody gets sat like wbduel, stacked teams don't happen, new players can play at their own pace in elim, and avoid good players if they wish. Elimnation you only need 3 players to have a hoot more is preferable of course, but you don't need 6 like Wbduel.

Wbduel is great for players who have been around ages and will get picked by their mates. But getting smashed by stacked wbduel teans will likely make people give up and quit. Elim they aren't letting anyone down by playing.
Playing a warbird elim, then being forced to play javelin causes a big gap in continuation. Soon as javelins see ?go elim they come and take over which ruins the whole momentum which I gather when playing warbird.

Elim was the pillar on which trench wars population was built, it provided people a place to chill out and play at all times. Legends were made here and so were villains, I remember when I was new to this game I saw ?go elim and I felt a buzz which i've never felt before in a computer game the fact that people were getting eliminated and it was something competitive where the winner was announced in public. I made it my sole duty to play and play untill I won my first elim 3-9 it didn't matter I was new, it didn't matter I won it by pure luck and a bit of hiding. I fell in love with it since.

So a summary of the advantages of a active elim
Only need a handful of players
No time setting up like wbduel
Anyone can play without letting a team down, or facing a overpowering team
Gap isn't so big between good and bad players.
Thanks to new map from Up in Ya !! no waiting times between elims.
A middle ground for players who have mastered public but yet not ready to twd/twl.



So I implore you, you have done a great job updating the wbduel map, but elim is more important for the game.

Many thanks

[Guero]

I Agree with Attacks. I think Elim has become the AFK zone. I remember those days when we used to play elim for like hrs and long streaks.

Too many arenas and too many rankings. Also, my ranking its gone I used to have like a great ranking and now show this "Guero is not yet ranked in WARBIRD" sucks my best ever

streak too its gone. There should be like a permanent ranking if you done playing u give the chance to break another your ranking and that's fair enough and let new people overcome

on this game. Elimination should give best rewards like $ for arena and improve that map for god sake :P.

[Spacely]

check my sig for my old elim record and you will see six figures for kills and deaths

merging the elims did kinda mess things up

the best thing when i used to play all the time was you got to play against players of all skill sets and levels that you wouldn't typically get to play in twdd. in fact some of the twld allstars was not all that good at elim 1v1 and people from, newb squads could put up fights with them and this would also allow people to learn warbird better

the rating system has to change no ratios or 300 games or whatever either go off rating you win/lose each game or rungs that calculate somehow but it has to be a rating system where is real time results and who cares how many loses you have or ratios you could still gain the rating points to climb to number one

the rating system has to be a real time active competitive thing not get some ratio and never play again or if you get to many loses you are hopelessly out of it

i would love to see elim with a proper rating system active again its a great training ground plus lots of fun i have like 8k usage playing elim

[mtine]

I agree totally. The elim was so much fun to play, like literally 50+ players there all the time. And even a lot playing. It was so much fun.
We should just divide them again since WB doesn't get much love lately. And besides, elim is the afk zone to go to, not the actually ?go afk arena.
Would love to see the map and rating improved. Qan, can you help us do that? I think we got a few people who would love to help you bring elim back to it's glory days.

[Spacely]

plz plz plz split elims what could it hurt? and make rating system that no matter how many loses you have you can still gain the rating points to get to first

old elim i have 89734 games at 20 minutes a game = 1,794,680 minutes = 29911.33 hours = 1246.3 days = 3.41 years of play time

3.41 years actual play time sitting at the computer.......

can you see how powerful this game is?

[qan]

Playing a warbird elim, then being forced to play javelin causes a big gap in continuation. Soon as javelins see ?go elim they come and take over which ruins the whole momentum which I gather when playing warbird.

This is a pretty compelling point. If it shuts down play that might otherwise continue, then we might have an issue.

Too many arenas and too many rankings. Also, my ranking its gone I used to have like a great ranking and now show this "Guero is not yet ranked in WARBIRD" sucks my best ever

Elim's been based on seasons for quite awhile, so the record does indeed reset from time to time. The original idea behind this was (I believe) to be able to give people a chance to compete with each season. Certainly worth debating whether or not it should be done.

the rating system has to change no ratios or 300 games or whatever either go off rating you win/lose each game or rungs that calculate somehow but it has to be a rating system where is real time results and who cares how many loses you have or ratios you could still gain the rating points to climb to number one

the rating system has to be a real time active competitive thing not get some ratio and never play again or if you get to many loses you are hopelessly out of it

The ratings system did change quite a bit around the start of 2016, focusing more on the amount you've played than ratio. Basically, you need to play many, many games to reach 100% confidence. If you're just at 50% confidence, this will reduce your rating by 1/2 (as in, multiply it by .50).

I can lower the requirements for first being rated, but no matter what, if you haven't played many elims, your rating will be very low. So it's almost impossible for players to do what they did a year or so ago, which is play a little elim, get a great record, then quit at #1 and never worry about being challenged. That encouraged inactive elims. I spent a lot of time overhauling that system so that it'd reward people who played more games. Eventually, if two players have both played 400+ elims, the one who has a better ratio and has killed more highly-rated players will be rated higher. But that I think is pretty fair. Not many people will play 400+ elims. So the result is, you can generally keep playing and rise in rating, even if you aren't a great player. I don't think many people understand this, though I can't blame them, as it's a little hard to understand, and there's no good place to explain it, other than the welcome message saying there's a "new" rating system. You'd see if you keep playing past when you get rated that basically every game you'll probably rise in ladder rating, unless you're doing terrible.

So what I can do:
- Look at splitting elim/belim again. I need to touch base with some people to see what they think, but my impression is that it's worth a shot.
- Modify ratings so that you don't need as many kills/deaths before being ranked on the ladder. The reason this was in was because the old ratings system did not use Confidence, so it was a kind of simple measure to prevent people from gaming the rating system. However, it ended up breaking elim, because after people got laddered they could be #1. After this change is made it should become more obvious that you are for the most part moving up the ladder with every single game you play.

Thoughts?

[Attacks]

Hey Qan thanks for looking at this

Sorry poor choice of words when I said ranking was broken, maybe in need of revision would have been better words. I think your ranking would work with confidence if more people played elim and more often, which we can work on, but maybe less games before confidence is reached is a good start as you say. Also more adverts and a small Pubbucks prize are these implementable also?

[olde]

Elim is dead, game is dead, there are no new players " to step up". If you separate elim you might be lucky enough to have 20 old vets in there playing for 3 hours. Then the hype will die and it will go back to being dead. No offence, just truth fellaz.

No new players = slow ss death.

[qan]

Hey Qan thanks for looking at this


Sorry poor choice of words when I said ranking was broken, maybe in need of revision would have been better words. I think your ranking would work with confidence if more people played elim and more often, which we can work on, but maybe less games before confidence is reached is a good start as you say. Also more adverts and a small Pubbucks prize are these implementable also?

Nw, not really saying it isn't broken, heh -- it was just a stab at making it better than it was before, trying to solve some of the problems. Always open to making it better; we just have to have an idea of what is to be done.


There are two things with confidence: one is where it doesn't ladder you because confidence is so low (<5%) that it would kinda be meaningless, where you basically need your qualifying rounds. The other is full confidence, 100%, which is reached after 400 games. I think lowering the requirement for the first one is a good move, because people will get immediate feedback and see they are working their way up. The second one, if people reach 100% confidence sooner, it means it's a little easier to game the system, and you don't have as much room to keep getting higher on the ladder the more you play. 400 might not be the perfect number ... smaller or greater might work. Or, it might be something that could increase with time. Start of season, if you play 100 games you're at full confidence, that kind of thing. The new TWD ratings will work based on an average of how many rounds the top 25 most active players have played. So if they averaged 20 rounds, and you have 15, you'll have 75% confidence (your ladder rating will = rating * .75). If you have 20 or more you'll have 100% confidence, or your ladder rating will = your rating. This would be a nice way to do things in elim, though it would require some adjustment. Either way it can be done mid-season without wrecking anything, really. Have to think more about it.


The bot does give pubbux awards, but only for games of a certain size, I think over 12 players or similar. I can pretty easily adjust it so that it awards with smaller groups, if you think it might incentivize play.


As for adverts, it's a little tricky. The bot used to be extremely broken, and would advert any time 1 person got into the arena. This made for a lot of false alarms. After adding the ability to enter in late, I made it advert only after elim type has been decided, so that people would know that the advert meant something -- there really was a game going -- and the zone wouldn't get spammed with endless false ?go elim adverts. However, I think the bot has been crying wolf for too long, and people just expect elim adverts to be lies... it's unfortunate.


So here are some concrete changes I'm making at the moment:
150 kills/deaths combination needed to ladder -> 50 (On average you should be able to reach this after 3-10 games)
10 players in elim needed to earn pubbux reward -> 4
Adverts will include info about type of elim when possible (WB elim to 5 is starting now. ?go elim to play) to give more of a sense of what is being played and hopefully entice people.


Still looking at what's needed to split elims, and if that's an idea a lot of folks can get behind. If it's contentious I might need to run a vote.

[Attacks]

Are we going to keep the practice arenas? They are a good idea, but Upster said they ruin ranking system as the score in them counts and there is no way to differentiate between practice kills and in main arena kills. If this is the case prob best without them.

[Kim]

This would be the second time elim would separate into elim and baseelim. The first time this happened we had 3 times the average population and it didn't work then. As olde says, you may get an initial bump in activity because its novel, but after the honeymoon period it will go back to what it currently is.

Here is the issue: Ranking is not attractive for veteran players at the moment because top players are not recognized zone-wide. I don't even know who the top players are at the moment without pm'ing the bot. Elim is also not the best place to practice for TWL because it focuses on individual skill rather than teaming. Elim used to be the next step up from pub, but all those players have now become 8-10 year old veterans of the game. Elim isn't the best place to show off your skill nowadays. TWEL is probably a better gauge of individual talent but the maps are in need of a revision, possibly more variety.

Warbirds always complain that jav players are hogging all the playtime in elim. Weeknight peak times you get maybe 1 twd game going, a full pub, and javduel/wbduel. Elim has been dead for a while. If you want to get wb games going, get people in there like you would for wbduel and get some games rolling. There is literally no one stopping you. I seriously doubt there are people just sitting in spec and voting jav just to spite you if your group of wbs are chaining wb games in there. The long-term vision is still broken which is why you won't have any long lasting wb or jav play in elim unless something is done.

[Turban]

Are we going to keep the practice arenas? They are a good idea, but Upster said they ruin ranking system as the score in them counts and there is no way to differentiate between practice kills and in main arena kills. If this is the case prob best without them.

Uh ..

that should not be the case unless someone made a mistake.

[Crescent Seal]

i personally started playing jav more since thats all that gets played in elim these days. but you will never see javs/basers try wb so its literally a jav map now.

[qan]

Are we going to keep the practice arenas? They are a good idea, but Upster said they ruin ranking system as the score in them counts and there is no way to differentiate between practice kills and in main arena kills. If this is the case prob best without them.

Upster never told me anything about this, so I'd be surprised if this is the case.


I checked the code and it looks like there could be a way for this to happen, if the loser was for some reason not counted as practicing. I'll check the winner for practicing status as well, to be safe; code should be updated in a bit. Unfortunately due to my schedule I'm pretty much just online during the dead times, though, so I won't really be able to test this. Anyone mind checking to see if it actually is counting kills? You should be able to use !stats for this, though you may need to wait until a round end, or quit the arena and come back, in order to get it to show properly. Appreciate it.

This would be the second time elim would separate into elim and baseelim. The first time this happened we had 3 times the average population and it didn't work then. As olde says, you may get an initial bump in activity because its novel, but after the honeymoon period it will go back to what it currently is.

Honestly, even if it's just an initial bump for novelty, if it'd literally be no worse than it is now I don't really see the problem in trying.


Re: zone-wide recognition, we could maybe print the top "everything" in Pub to give people the idea of competing in other parts of the zone. Top in elim, in TWD, in pub, etc. It'd be one more thing for people to get distracted by, of course, but it might be worth doing. Maybe just printed around A1 or the like, rather than on-screen, so it's not too distracting.

I seriously doubt there are people just sitting in spec and voting jav just to spite you if your group of wbs are chaining wb games in there.

From what I gather that's not what they're saying happens. It's that the bot begins adverting for elim several times after the WBs are chaining games, and this attracts Javs who are interested in elim, but weren't in the arena before. They come in, vote (maybe one or two of the WB players vote with them, for variety), and then it basically switches over to Jav elim after that.

[Tiny]

someone messed with the rating system and now soz3 is #1. who wants to play that when someone so bad could be at the top with the ratings... Fix the ratings, leave the elims one arena, add some to code only allow X jav games in a row, give some incentive once the ratings are fixed, and you will have a few players of what is left of the population. On a prior note, maybe allow the bot to allow someone to continue their streak, once its over, revert to other ship. 2 cents