Discriminatory behavior Part 2

[Ephemeral]

I was disappointed in the previous post since it migrated towards a geo-political discussion rather than clarification of TW rules. I, too, am seeking a better understanding of the discrimination rules in TW. The current rule is as follows;

4. Discrimination, racism, childporn or anything related to it inside the game. This includes but is not restricted to names, squad names and banners.

First, racism cannot be policed. Racism is a belief, or state of mind. No one can police someone else’s state of mind. So I think that the racism word should be removed from the rule. Second, childporn shouldn’t be included in this rule, it should be called out in another rule. Childporn has nothing to do with having racist thoughts or being discriminatory.

Discrimination is the correct word to use but the current rule is very vague. I would like to suggest the rule be worded differently and more along the lines of this:

‘TW is committed to providing a community that is free of discrimination. As such, TW strictly prohibits all forms of discrimination on the basis of a person’s age, sex, religion, race, disability, or national origin. This includes but is not restricted to all chats, player names, squad names and banners.
Any person who believes her or she has been subjected to discriminatory behavior or has witnessed discriminatory behavior is encouraged to report the incident to any staff member. TW forbids retaliation against anyone who in good faith makes a report of discrimination or cooperates in an investigation of an action.
TW’s policy is to investigate all such complaints promptly and thoroughly. TW will attempt to keep such reports confidential and will disclose reported information only on a need-to-know basis and to the extent necessary to investigate and resolve the matter.’

Now this makes the current rule much broader, covering not just discrimination on the basis of a person’s race, but for all types of discrimination. This would include calling someone a ‘fag’ or even make the Cripples squad name illegal. Although this might at first seem a little extreme, I don’t understand how TW can say that it’s bad to discriminate against someone’s race, but it’s ok to discriminate against a person’s sex, religion, disability, or national origin. If discrimination is wrong, then it’s wrong for all those things. It is my opinion that TW should enforce this rule fully, or remove the rule all together. Enforcing a discrimination rule partially undermines the effectiveness of the rule and opens the door for people to press the limits even more.

Thoughts?

[ZeUs!!]

I think this rule is more about setting the tone rather than defining the be all and end all of what is and what isn't allowed to be said

[Vantage]

are u making the Iraqi constitution?

[Ephemeral]

Originally posted by Vantage
are u making the Iraqi constitution?

No, not at all and I'm not sure why you would want to take this thread into a political discussion.

For your editification, most of what I suggest above is the policy that most American corporations are required to follow. It has been proofed by a $300/hour corporate lawyer.

If folks have better suggestions, than by all means post them (any boob can be critical without offering suggestions).

[Facetious]

Re: Discriminatory behavior Part 2

Originally posted by Ephemeral
Thoughts?

Suggesting monitoring or enforcing racism rules in private chats is ludicrous, first of all, I'd take that out. I think the point of racism/lewd speech/etc rules should be to make sure that nobody gets subjected to hearing (reading)material that they don't want to hear in the public areas of the game. If you're on a private chat that doesn't fit in with your moral standards, discussion-wise, you can just leave. Not so with baseelim spec chat. If you lean in that direction, soon, I won't be able to discuss blowjobs with my squadmates because Dimboy might hack our chat and then report us for talking about sexual things that he doesn't understand.

Also, having vague rules like this will get out of hand really fast, even if you were to do as I suggest and limit the rules only to public areas. While many staffmembers are mature enough and trustworthy enough to fairly dole out punishments based on their own discretion, you have to realize that there are and have been a lot of people on staff that couldn't come close to handling that responsibility. As for the people that could handle the responsibilty, it seems like a large request to make them pay attention to so many things.

On the other hand, I do agree that calling Cig Smoke a fag should be just as illegal as calling HellzNo! a spic, so I do agree that just restricting racism doesn't make any sense. I really think there should just be a specific list of words that are illegal to say in public or spec chat, and then just leaving it at that.

If it came down to accepting the rules you suggested, or eliminating all racism rules entirely, I would choose the latter option.

[foobarz]

Ephemeral--I agree with your new wording, except that I would clarify it such that harassment based on this type of aspect is also mentioned and forbidden. Some people might not consider harassment based on bigotry to be discrimination since it is words rather than concrete actions. But I think people coming to TW should be free of harassment based on certain group affiliations they cannot control. I would find a "put them on ignore" philosophy for this harassment inadequate, as it might stop a single incident from continuing, but that single instance has occurred, and the offender might be involved in further incidents.

On the issue of private chats: I lean toward TW staying out of them. I believe that they reside on general Subspace servers rather than specific players' computers and as such I don't see how TW has jurisdiction over them.

Also, preempting any possible "free speech" arguments, I realize that expressing someone's bigoted opinions would be free speech, but TW is private property, and as such the people who use TW have no inherent rights with regards to it. So I see no problem with requiring certain minimal standards of behavior and civility. "Respect your fellow trencher."

Finally--Facetious--you say that "a lot of people on staff that couldn't come close to handling that responsibility"--and I'm not quite sure what to make of this. I personally don't have knowledge of this and have positive impressions of most of the staff I have talked to--but if there were staff that couldn't handle the responsibility, then wouldn't they have just the same problem with their other responsibilites as well? I don't see how this creates a problem unique to this. If there are any "gray" areas, i.e. something that's arguably discriminatory or arguably not, I imagine they would err on the side of caution, and perhaps defer to another staff member's opinion or whatever private communication methods staff has.

[Facetious]

Hosting events is a lot easier than judging whether or not something is discriminatory.

[cundor]

Whatever Zeus!! said

[Ephemeral]

Originally posted by ZeUs!!
I think this rule is more about setting the tone rather than defining the be all and end all of what is and what isn't allowed to be said

A ‘tone’ is usually set in a mission statement or a set or ‘guidelines’. It is my opinion that a set of ‘rules’ should be specific. It is not fair to the staff or the community to loosely and informally define rules. Firstly, the staff ends up having to make subjective decisions on the fly, and then leaving them open to condemnation and disciplinary action if they make the incorrect decision. The staff should be enforcing the rules, not trying to interpret them. Secondly, having informal or loose rules encourages people to seek ‘loop-holes’ or ways around the rule. As we have seen, many people are ‘pushing’ on this rule, seeing how far they can go. (I do acknowledge that no matter how specific the rules are they will always be some who do this anyway.)

[Dim]

I agree with the last bit about not being able to discriminate against colour but against sex etc, but fag and sometimes the n-word isn't used in a racist manner, but just another way to say newbie or idiot.

[Facetious]

How is implying that being gay or black is a synonym for stupid or inept not being discriminatory?

[Demonic]

Firstly, private chats will never be regulated due to the fact they are global and not just specific too trenchwars. In other words, zones like hockey zone etc are not as strict on racism etc as trenchwars is yet the private chats still affect that zone, so if someone on private chat in hz is being racist there isnt alot that tw staff can do about it.
All of the other points make sense though, but unfourtunatly discrimination is apart of society and its impossible to completely wipe it out. Racism is, probably, the worst form of discrimination and has been for century's, as such staff take a much stronger line with that then any other form really. This being said, the rules by which staff regulate this rule still needs alot of work, at the moment the majority of the racism acted upon is aimed at the "black community" ie saying the words n*g etc, but if someone says azn or lepricorn (aimed at irish heh) etc its not really dealt with for some reason. There is still alot of work needed to be done in all area's within this topic, but there is only so much a staff member can do, 80% of the work needs to be done by the player base of trenchwars not by staff, its up too you to wipe out racism, staff can only help enforce it.
The most of the ppl being racist are doing it to try and act "big" or because they know it affects ppl, when most probably its because they are insecure about themselves. That being said, staff will still endevour to wipe out as much racism and discrimination from this zone as possible.

Dem

[Tigerex]

Racism will never be eradicated in Tw, censorship will never suceed as there will always be new words, new people everyone hates, new staffers that people want to aggrivate. Why do we have to even discuss what is allowed and what isn't. No matter how much discussion takes place one thing will remain constant, people will continue to racially insult each other.

No matter how many people you ban, no matter how many people decide that racism is bad, this is an issue not worth discussing. Tw staff isn't about stopping racism, it's about giving a chosen few people in TW an opportunity to serve in exchange for the right to claim superiority, for example it is like working in McDonalds without getting paid (although you don't get any respect for that...kinda like TW staff). I'm loving it.

[Jerome Scuggs]

welcome to the desert of the real

Slavoj Zizek writes about Forced and Voluntary Choice. You guys should check it out.

the lowdown: basically, as long as we keep enforcing the laws and such, ppl will endeavor to bend the rules, or even break them. But if you lift the laws and regulations, sure, in the beginning everyone will do whatever the law prohibited, but after awhile it will fade away and people will realize how horrible it is themselves, and the push for a voluntary choice to ban it.

my 2 cents on racism.

[Pio]

Am I the only one not seeing a problem here?

?obscene, If you choose to turn it off then you choose to see the words, and if you don't like it turn it back on buddy.

Use, ?obscene to toggle it on or off. Use it and stop littering these forums with your stupid bullshit.