MVP in a timed race game

[Jason]

I'd like to know how in the sam hell you're supposed to get MVP in a bird. I don't know how many games I've played as a basebird where I've gotten at LEAST a half dozen tds and kept between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio, but I didn't get MVP. If you ask me, a bird that performs like that deserves MVP more than a shark that mined all over the place in fr and probably tk'd as much as he got the enemy.

[Stabwound]

In the previous revision of the MatchBots I got shark MVP on the losing team with around 20 TKs. I am pretty sure the current version punishes you a lot more for TKs, especially terrier TKs.

[lunch3]

It is worth more killing a shark because you need to waste bullets to get past the reps and sharks are strategically important to kill because they can rep and mine you in a tornado of expertise. You can probably kill two spiders with the same effort it takes to kill one shark.

It is not impossible for a wb to get mvp, one of my squaddies, Punk Rock, got it twice in a row in that ship in ?go base. You just have to be skilled and td like hell.

These equations are good, just hope lnx can put up and display the mvps in the match info stats soon.

[Force of Nature]

Heh, the new formulas havent been used at all. I believe the code hasn't been compiled to date. You guys are still using the old stuff.

Secondly the shark forumla is still being worked on. I had to remove the repel stuff because it wasn't working.

Thirdly, if everything was proportional, then its a easy way at looking at things. Some of you are missing some vital things. There are generally more spiders than sharks. Killing a shark is much harder due to the limited number of sharks + repels.

[Force of Nature]

THIS IS BULL SHIT. quit giving terr and shark mvp. anyone who takes MVP seriously when a SHARK gets it is fucking out of their mind. this is encouraging sharks not to do their main job, which is repel for the team. ill be sure to remember this next time i get shark so i can mine like fucking crazy and get mvp.

Hold your horses, firstly you are getting worked up about the shark. Its being worked on. The new formulas which i posted a couple of thread back cut down the terr + sharks changes of getting mvps. The code hasnt been compiled and hasn't been tested. So, don't jump to conclusions without having the full facts.

SECOND, this is a highly subjective system which is therefore highly subject to error. why is more value placed on a spider killing a shark than a spider killing a terr? bull shit. some ships worth more than others? bull shit. if some all knowing being made that system, i wouldnt mind so much. but a person made it, and his opinions about how to base could be and probably are different from mine. so are we all supposed to play like he has indirectly told us how to?

And the previous one wasn't? It was far more subjective system than the current one. It gave spiders MVP all the time? How is that not subjective? It rewared mass killing than any other item in the game? How is that not subjective? Statistically, this system gives out a greater percentage of MVPs to the right ships than the other system. Dont whine just because the spider isn't getting the MVP all the time

THIRD, the terr ranking is bull shit because how well a terr does is at least 50-60 percent how much his team helps him. it is bull shit that a terr could just sit in the cram the whole game while his team takes care of business in midbase, crushing the other team. thats a free ride to the mvp, while things that a terr does that are truely outstanding are not taken into account because they have no statistical measure.

So, instead of spouting out what isn't taken into account be more constructive and tell me what you think are important and maybe the next revisions will try to incorporate that. There is no free ride to MVP, the terr worked hard before and never got MVP? How is this fair? Given that the terr is a team effort, the assumption is the terr is keeping the team alive unless another ship is outstanding. Secondly, graph the formulas - if you want to get a better view of what is happening, its not happening as simple as you think it is.

Ok so if you are going to fix something that is not broken, at least keep it objective and unflawed. the system has many large flaws, you can't deny it. please tell me that no one takes the current MVP system seriously.

If you are telling me the previous MVP system was objective you are mistaken. It wasn't, it was clearly subjective to the 100% points. Atleast this system is trying to incorporate more stats than just points, realising various stats have different weights. The starting values were best estimates but as they are being refined - things such as how well the system is predicted the MVP is taken into account. So dont think its a random process. In due time, you'll have a far better system than 100% points can ever give you.

It doesn't do just quotes

[Force of Nature]

I'd like to know how in the sam hell you're supposed to get MVP in a bird. I don't know how many games I've played as a basebird where I've gotten at LEAST a half dozen tds and kept between a 1:1 and 2:1 ratio, but I didn't get MVP. If you ask me, a bird that performs like that deserves MVP more than a shark that mined all over the place in fr and probably tk'd as much as he got the enemy.

Its being fixed Jason, I know the bird was underrated after the start. The new formulas try to adjust for it. We'll have to see when they get compiled and hosted if there has been an improvement.

[Sarien]

Hrmm. I fail to understand why anyone would get mad at FoN for tweaking the MVP routines. He's only made it clear a dozen different times that not only are the new routines imperfect at the moment, but requests actual feedback (not bitching) and suggestions to make things better. Secondly he keeps saying that for now this is an ongoing process with updates, and such, so all the complaining in the world now, is a lot like complaining about how a new car drives, when it's still on the assembly line being built. If you want to help, I think, by all means help. If you want to complain about a half done project, sit the hell down and wait until it's finished.

And no, I don't mean Jason, who I happen to find snuggly in the extreme.

[Jason]

Good deal FoN. Keep up the good work.

Sarien, what's up dude?

[za gophar]

the thing i dislike most is that we are now supposed to base according to the way the person who made the equations thinks we should.

it is relatively safe to say that a spider who kills a lot is valuable. with the new equation system, there are tons of things about it that have potential flaws depending on how any given person sees it.

the most constructive thing i have to say is.. change the system. like i said before, much of the value of especially the terr and the shark can NOT be determined by looking at the numbers. for example, there is a huge difference between a terr who dies from running into a mine and a terr who dies because he is cornered in the flagroom and his team is dead. however, in the statbox, both of these situations equate to exactly the same thing: 1 death. it has no meaning.

i think that if we must change, matchbot should give a large variety of interesting and relevant stats at the end of the game. that seems to be what a lot of other people want anyway.

[Verthanthi]

I never played for the mvp before, why should i play for it now?

[Sarien]

Gophar.. read posts.. #35, and #83.
The bitchyness about "having to base the way someone else says" to get MVP would be like.. in the first match or couple matches the system it is ever used. From there on out the people in the arena use the modified voting system to help determine the way the bot will deal with the figures it has, and help keep up with different styles of play.

Jason.. I just played Gauntlet for 2 hours straight.. like.. old-timey.. "Don't Shoot the Food!" and "Elf is about to die." Gauntlet... my brain feels like stir-fry. I wonder if I'm getting too old for video games.

[Verthanthi]

you are never too old for GAUNTLET.

[Force of Nature]

the thing i dislike most is that we are now supposed to base according to the way the person who made the equations thinks we should.

it is relatively safe to say that a spider who kills a lot is valuable. with the new equation system, there are tons of things about it that have potential flaws depending on how any given person sees it.

You can base to whatever your heart desires because in the end winning the game is way more important than the getting the MVP. Since MVP was points before, did that mean people based for that sole purpose? Well considering it was point race I guess that could be given but not all ships did that. The terr didn't base for points neither did the sharks. Most of the time nor did the Wbs or the Javs. They based on the virtue of helping the team win to whatever the winning goal is. In the end, do whatever you feel it will take to win the game. If the mvp system in the end predicts this most of the time and somewhat resembles something of a valgue valuable player, then I think I've succeeded. Think of elim, belim the rating formulas are accepted as a good approximate. In the end everything is just an approximate, but if it is right most of the time then its better than one that isn't.

[za gophar]

mvp is all i ever played for. what the hell do i care if my go base team wins? squad basing is a totally different matter of course, but oh my god.. if u arent in it for yourself in go base why are you even there?

it would be nice and all if you could make it so the mvp really is the player who helped their team win the most, but you cant. in my opinion sometimes the person who most helped the team win might not have even come close to getting the most kills (dont get me wrong though a lot of kills is good).

i cant believe that right now sharks are getting MVP for stuff like kills and deaths. same with terrs too i guess. put the equations in place when they are perfected (which they never will be).

also tell me why we cant just have the bot give out important stats at the end of every game. obviously that system is better than the current one, and the old one too. tell me what is wrong with it.

[Force of Nature]

mvp is all i ever played for. what the hell do i care if my go base team wins? squad basing is a totally different matter of course, but oh my god.. if u arent in it for yourself in go base why are you even there?

it would be nice and all if you could make it so the mvp really is the player who helped their team win the most, but you cant. in my opinion sometimes the person who most helped the team win might not have even come close to getting the most kills (dont get me wrong though a lot of kills is good).

i cant believe that right now sharks are getting MVP for stuff like kills and deaths. same with terrs too i guess. put the equations in place when they are perfected (which they never will be).

also tell me why we cant just have the bot give out important stats at the end of every game. obviously that system is better than the current one, and the old one too. tell me what is wrong with it.

This system isn't for ?go base only. This is for calculating MVP in a timed race game. It has nothing to do with ?go base only whatever. You aren't the only person who plays ?go base and a lot of players play it to win as a team. Not everyone plays it for MVP like you do. Maybe some people enjoy a good basing match. I know I for one do and I know a lot of other people.

OMG sharks are getting stuff for kills! Why shouldn't they, they aren't factore d in much and in further revisions they are going to be less involved with kills and more involved with other stats I develop. Just the fact that you think its purely based on kills and deaths shows your lack of understanding of how the forumlas truely work. Points which include flag points are also involved in the calculation. In the end if it statistically shows that a shark that has performed well recieved MVP that is more than enough and I think there have been a lot of sharks whether it was for kills or whatnot that have recieved MVP on that regard.

The MVP is a tradition in the game. It has always had a MVP. People like you apparantly do play for MVP. No one really cares about the most repels made. They care about where they stand comparable to others. The fact that you are arguing with me on this itself shows this. Therefore, I think people do want to have a MVP system. Secondly, this is a nice step to help other things like TWLM where they need to rate various players to increase value. Later, if possible it can also be used for drafting variances or whatnot. It has potential to be a lot more or nothing at all. I for one want to see how far I can get it to accurately portray an MVP of a time race game and hence I'm working on it.