Which cram should be in TWL?

[zidane]

which is exactly what i did and then you hopped on my dick, make up your mind

[Vehicle]

edit: also twl isn't pub, this like me putting up a poll saying should jav bombs bounce twice next twlj. good lord

Is it tho?

[Zeebu]

yea, makes sense. i didnt really play during this twdt so i didnt notice it was getting as bad as it is apparently. i know 2/3 of the twbd games ive seen have been laughable at times. as someone said, half the time the cramming ter just retreats into flag room and lets the other team in. most of those games lopsided games ive seen had very lopsided teams though so i didn't think too much about it,

another un-thought-out idea from me: go back to the old base and just make everything along the lower portion of the flag room wider by 2. That would leave the wider cram entrance while still giving cover while attacking the strong side. since im not looking at a map right now, im not sure what other impacts that would have on cram. the weak side may be able to have a new angle on that area, i just cant visualize right now. oh and a ton of set burst locations would be all fucked up.

[Rab]

another un-thought-out idea from me: go back to the old base and just make everything along the lower portion of the flag room wider by 2. That would leave the wider cram entrance while still giving cover while attacking the strong side. since im not looking at a map right now, im not sure what other impacts that would have on cram. the weak side may be able to have a new angle on that area, i just cant visualize right now. oh and a ton of set burst locations would be all fucked up.

Do you mean image 'a' here: https://forums.trenchwars.com/main/1...74#post1331374

copied here to save a click:

[Zeebu]

Do you mean image 'a' here: https://forums.trenchwars.com/main/1...74#post1331374

copied here to save a click:

very close. I’m on my phone so I can’t easily modify a screen cap myself. I was more looking to remove a block from the flat in between the coffin and the hump thing. Or in between the hump thing and the small holes to mid.

your map narrows the slot attackers can hide in while breaking cram. Mine would leave that area open but would have some impact on set burst locations. I think both are worth trying a game or two out.

[Zeebu]

ok, played a couple games in the base with the doors that open to the coffins after x amount of time. i can see that with some more experience by everyone playing, it would be less of a clusterfuck than it turned out to be. it was definitely a clusterfuck though. i dont think i like it.

[BIET]

The cram discussion is kinda all over so not sure if this is the best place to post it but here we go anyway. Also, I'm sorry if I don't take some/all of the previous posts into consideration. I did try to take all the feedback into consideration however.

TWBD and TWBD2 currently have the dynamic cram doors, and while they seem like a decent alternative for TWDTB matches, there are some concerns about it in a TWLB setting.
Small update on the cram doors, the current timing is 90 (from 60) seconds outside fr to open, and 10 seconds inside fr to close. The 10 seconds inside need to be consecutive, meaning both terrs need to stay within the fr for the doors to close. Leaving the fr before the 10 seconds are up and the count resets. The 60 seconds outside counts down no matter where the terrs are while the doors are closed. The count does stop/reset when both terrs have been in the fr for 10 consecutive seconds.

The discussion, for TWDT at least, is mostly between old normal cram, wide cram, normal cram with coffin doors, and wide cram with spider camp spot removed. The first three have been used, or are currently being tested, but the last one has yet to be experienced. So now, in TWBD3, you will find the slightly modified wide cram. The coffin is the same as the original, but I did put in the roof and bottom corner holes that are also in TWBD and TWBD2. I'd like to get some feedback on those as fast as possible so we can make the decision to either go with the old or use the new holes.

Keep the discussion going and the feedback coming. Oh, and let me know if you'd want a third option to be available in TWBD2, if yes, which one?

[ogron]

nice work BIET, thanks.

TWLB

i don't see there being much (if any) support among TWLB contenders for changing the TWL map, which has been the same for 12 years. i think the map used for TWLB 2010-2021 should continue to be used.

Basing Cup

same as TWL, as the quality of lines is similar. same map as always. breaking isn't an issue in either league the last few years.

TWDT-B

the doors seem great in theory, but so far in play have felt bad.

1) it feels too powerful for the breaking team... they swarm through all 3 doors and the cramming team gets overwhelmed
2) the cramming team keeps trying to greed and hold cram, when it's impossible. the only way to test the true merit of the door map is if they back off and fortify 1 side and try to hold a 60/40 advantage over the FR
3) cramming teams keep ignoring the door on their side. enemy spiders keep sneaking into it and wreaking havoc and trapping the enemy team on all sides
4) when you're losing and get a cram, it feels bad having the doors open when you're down 12-4 and the opposing team gets a free pass into base, like it's crazy hard to come back
5) sometimes you get a tek so fast, the other team has open doors and you don't get a cram

i think it warrants more testing, and hopefully cramming teams improve their reaction to the doors opening, but as of right now i think my preference's would be:

1) TWL map
2) Doors map
3) Wide cram map

if players can't adjust to the doors, maybe just 1 door open would be better? the 2nd door just seems to get pounced on by a cram-breaking spid and destroys your side. i think if cramming teams played it less greedy it might not be an issue, but we'll see.

wide cram should be 100% scrapped though, the new strats have somehow made that map the worst. any map replacing the TWL map of the last 12 years shoul have to conclusively prove it's significantly better than the standard TWL map, and i don' think any of them have. the wide cram showed early promise but clever players outwitted it.

[Vehicle]

Great work Biet. Doors are stupid but I appreciate the effort. I'm in favor of whatever people want, so long as it's one entrance to the base — the whole game.

[Rab]

I'll pop this in here, defo think these corners should be blocked off to prevent this spid hitting this terr:

[Rab]

these should be made symmetrical imo

[ogron]

nice work BIET, thanks.

TWLB

i don't see there being much (if any) support among TWLB contenders for changing the TWL map, which has been the same for 12 years. i think the map used for TWLB 2010-2021 should continue to be used.

Basing Cup

same as TWL, as the quality of lines is similar. same map as always. breaking isn't an issue in either league the last few years.

TWDT-B

the doors seem great in theory, but so far in play have felt bad.

1) it feels too powerful for the breaking team... they swarm through all 3 doors and the cramming team gets overwhelmed
2) the cramming team keeps trying to greed and hold cram, when it's impossible. the only way to test the true merit of the door map is if they back off and fortify 1 side and try to hold a 60/40 advantage over the FR
3) cramming teams keep ignoring the door on their side. enemy spiders keep sneaking into it and wreaking havoc and trapping the enemy team on all sides
4) when you're losing and get a cram, it feels bad having the doors open when you're down 12-4 and the opposing team gets a free pass into base, like it's crazy hard to come back
5) sometimes you get a tek so fast, the other team has open doors and you don't get a cram

i think it warrants more testing, and hopefully cramming teams improve their reaction to the doors opening, but as of right now i think my preference's would be:

1) TWL map
2) Doors map
3) Wide cram map

if players can't adjust to the doors, maybe just 1 door open would be better? the 2nd door just seems to get pounced on by a cram-breaking spid and destroys your side. i think if cramming teams played it less greedy it might not be an issue, but we'll see.

wide cram should be 100% scrapped though, the new strats have somehow made that map the worst. any map replacing the TWL map of the last 12 years shoul have to conclusively prove it's significantly better than the standard TWL map, and i don' think any of them have. the wide cram showed early promise but clever players outwitted it.

TWDT (updated)

1) TWL map
2) Wide cram w/o block in TWBD3
2) Doors map
3) Wide cram map

BIET this bd3 one feels better than doors and the current TWDT-B map

i thought doors would be amazing but in practice bd3 feels quite solid

[Turban]

I believe the lack of a visual progress bar on when doors are about to open is holding this variant down as it currently opens without warningsudden and becomes reaction based which results in it feeling slightly chaotic.

There is also no comeback mechanics which definitely could be included such as disabling doors when a team is losing by a certain amount and holding the cram, or perhaps disabling the function after certain conditions are met. Alternatively there could perhaps also be a scaling timer (from 90 seconds up to 5 minutes) which would depend on current time difference between two teams when holding cram.

[Rab]

twbd3 cram is good, I say use that for upcoming TWDT.

No need to spend any more time on doors right now, which it sounds like 90% of ppl don't like.

[Vehicle]

I don't like the doors but I do agree with Turban. The best UI would be one that changes the door color 10 seconds before they open and 5-10 seconds before they close. They also need to stay open longer, like a full 20 seconds, after Terr gets in. If they escape back out, that's fine, think of it as a Terr bursting cram. I still don't like them in general though.

The bd3 map works pretty well. It remains to be seen what good spids can do with practice in terms of new angles. Terr drops into cram are in a way safer and easier now too. All that being said the bd3 map seems to pretty effectively nerf both cram attack and defense.