Specials in TWL-B

[Nipple Nibbler]

The combination of one-shot kills, the agility of the ship and the regeneration all combined to make Warbird really overpowered in the right hands. For a perfect example, ease is averaging 8.5 teks per game according to TWD site. I have literally seen him tank 8 shots turn around and shoot, this isn't balanced.

To the comment about not changing things after TWL has already started: Lancs are surprisingly efficient at taking out warbirds, but for some odd reason they can't even attach without 10 bounty, shoot spider level bullets, and someone seriously messed up their shooting speed. So they have to mess with settings anyways.

Specials have always been a way for higher level squads to bully the shit out of lower level squads, with so few squads left on the ladder maybe it's time to balance the warbird.

[Poseidon]

hmm... "completely useless" .. i dunno. what if WB did 1499 energy dmg per bullet? this would one hit kill spid, shark, and take a terr down to 1 energy. i think WB would be a viable option as you would still get a lot of one-shots on terr but you'd also force the terr have to play differently.. not thrust as much, stay safer, not bullet, etc.

but ya its possible if it didnt straight up do at least 1500 energy per bullet that noone would use it

there is a lot more a WB does tho than just kill the terr. a lot of its utility in the flagroom is that it it simply is a threat and its difficult to kill, meaning its constantly distracting the enemy team and creating more space for its own team; it not being able to straight one-shot a terr might not be as big of a nerf as it seems, especially if it can still take a terr down to 1 energy, essentially meaning it would be just as much of a distraction and space creator as it is in its current iteration

[Turban]

So in 1.3 seconds a spider can kill a warbird with 1 shot, but in 3 seconds a warbird can kill a spider?

So why mess with WB settings? Once it shoots, you dodge and shoot at the same time and snipe it, and the WB dies. Incredibly easy to do. I do this 10/10 times, the timing is simple, it doesn't require a lot of skill or aim since you're a machine gun. Only thing that can stop this is when the warbird wall hides, which means they ain't gonna be shooting you.

See above my edited comment about numbers how long it takes to kill a warbird right now.

[Turban]

turban.. i dont think that its okay to change the settings of a WB in such a way that the ship plays different between TWLD and TWLB, especially when there are ways to nerf the ship in TWLB that are able to maintain mechanical harmony between both leagues, such as what i proposed above

the main strength of warbird is its ability one hit kill any ship, and removing that would render warbird completely useless as per your suggestion. however, it's a valid point that the ship would feel sightly different and play out differently.

as an added fun fact that many may not be aware of, Lancaster used to have slightly different ship settings in BASE, TWBD, and TWLB subarenas. this was not noticed until recently, and now we are consolidating ship settings to be identical across all three subarenas.

[Poseidon]

What we should do is slightly lower the recharge rate as that is what makes the ship extremely annoying to deal with in a basing setting.

turban.. i dont think that its okay to change the settings of a WB in such a way that the ship plays different between TWLD and TWLB, especially when there are ways to nerf the ship in TWLB that are able to maintain mechanical harmony between both leagues, such as what i proposed above

[Falconeer]

[*]It takes between 3.375 and 3.750 seconds to fully recharge the energy depending on the starting energy value.[*]It takes exactly 1.300 seconds to fully recharge the damage taken from a spider bullet. Spiders can fire bullets every 0.600 seconds, but ideally should fire bullets every 0.900 seconds to maintain optimal energy levels.

So in 1.3 seconds a spider can kill a warbird with 1 shot, but in 3 seconds a warbird can kill a spider?

So why mess with WB settings? Once it shoots, you dodge and shoot at the same time and snipe it, and the WB dies. Incredibly easy to do. I do this 10/10 times, the timing is simple, it doesn't require a lot of skill or aim since you're a machine gun. Only thing that can stop this is when the warbird wall hides, which means they ain't gonna be shooting you.

Turban A decrease of recharge means you further decrease how often a wb can kill a spider and increase how often a spider can kill a WB, right now it seems balanced. The best warbirds are getting 60-50 records? How is that cry worthy? The best spiders are getting 100-70 or 70-50. Which ship is meant for base more?

Same three ships in base and 1 entrance is what makes base boring for me, if WB is a problem then counter it with another ship. Seems like 1 hit kill is the problem and all ships that could do this were removed from basing, except shark mines and terr burst. I don't think shrap 1 hit kills. Even with shark mines people use it sparingly because of reps.

If the issue is terr dying you can just make wb bullets do 1400 dmg, which instant kills a spider still. I have no sympathy for you if you're a spider or shark complaining about wb, get good, learn to time reps, learn to kill wb. If it's about getting TEKS and 1 shotting terrs, well... normally I'd just say dodge, or have your team block for you. Other than that if it's 1500 energy for a terr, you can just make WB bullets do 1400 energy, will still 1 shots spiders. Problem solved.

[Poseidon]

lol @ anyone who thinks basing should be reduced to teams being forced to field a lineup of full of spiders as the most boring and repetitive role I've ever experienced in the history video games. In my opinion the focus should be re-hauling the spider and chokepoints so the gameplay isn't an arena full of people smashing control at the same area for 70% of the game timer. Don't know why people talk about nerfing 'specials' when one ship is considered so much better than the others that most people call you a troll for playing anything other than the spider.

unfortunately thats never going to happen. most basers are very stubborn and have no interest in trying to evolve what is already a fun experience into something even better and more dynamic. granted, it would also take a lot of time, tinkering, and experimentation and we're talking about a competitive league here, so its low key understandable

[Poseidon]

5 spiders all game every game every season is whack and it gets stale. i would like 2 counter pressures proposition and propose that we allow 2 or 3 specials instead of just 1. the fact that spiders are best for cramming means the use of specials is self-regulated by the dynamics of optimal gameplay... if a team can fig out how to win using specials, regardless of the fact that they wont be able to cram as well, then more power to them and they should be rewarded for executing creative and risky stratagems. this helps keep the gameplay fresh.

however i also agree w pressure about wb needing nerf. ideally you lower its recharge rate or bullet speed or something, but since you dont want to make the ship feel different between TWLD and TWLB, the only option is what pressure proposed - lowering its damage dealt in TWLB. 50% reduction is way too big a nerf however. it makes sense to base the reduction around the terr's energy... i tink if WB bullet did around 85-90% of a terr's total energy in dmg per bullet that'd be ideal. considering a terr has 1500 energy this would mean ~1300 energy per WB bullet... which would mean it still one shots a shark which has 1200 nrg, and nearly one shots a spid which has 1400. i think this all sounds about right.

but this needed to be done before season started, you cant tinker w shit in the middle of season... will have to wait till next season.

also pro tip regarding Dildo Schwaggins (aka Falconer) up above me ^^^ ... yall just gotta not respond to him. we have basically an identical twin to this guy in HZ who is also terrible at the game and trolls HZ forums incessantly and manages to derail almost every thread simply because people cant seem to refrain from taking the bait. plz vs silent treatment so all the shit he spews will at least stay quarantined to only his individual posts.

[zidane]

Shouldn't be proposing ship changes after the twl season has already started, much less from an op. Wb hasn't been changed ever and has hardly ever been utilized in twlb for obvious reasons.

If it's that broken more people should and would use it. There's never been a line with a warbird in it win twlb in over 15 years, let's stop exaggerating.

[Thrill]

lol @ anyone who thinks basing should be reduced to teams being forced to field a lineup of full of spiders as the most boring and repetitive role I've ever experienced in the history video games. In my opinion the focus should be re-hauling the spider and chokepoints so the gameplay isn't an arena full of people smashing control at the same area for 70% of the game timer. Don't know why people talk about nerfing 'specials' when one ship is considered so much better than the others that most people call you a troll for playing anything other than the spider.

[Turban]

Not taking a closer look into the full potential of warbird was anoversight from our part, however your suggestions would render the ship completely useless. We are also not going to be removing specials from TWLB as they should remain as viable options for teams to use in a competitive basing match.

What we should do is slightly lower the recharge rate as that is what makes the ship extremely annoying to deal with in a basing setting. The ship was not designed and balanced with basing in mind, and was always meant to be more of an agile fighter used in open space. Below you can see what the current recharge rates, bullet fire costs, and bullet damage for fighter ships:

Warbird recharges 400 energy per second and starts with 1500 energy. It takes 1350 energy to fire a bullet with bullets dealing 1560 damage.
Spider recharges 250 energy per second and starts with 1400 energy. It takes 225 energy to fire a bullet with bullets dealing 520 damage.
Lancaster recharges 245 energy per second and starts with 1500 energy. It takes 600 or 900 energy to fire a bullet depending on multifire status with bullets dealing 1040 damage.

When looking at these recharge rates from an objective point of view it doesn't take a genius to figure out that one of these three ships is a bit too strong in abasing setting where the primary strategy revolves around using ships with lower damage bullets paired with decent fire rate.

• It takes between 3.375 and 3.750 seconds to fully recharge the energy depending on the starting energy value.
• It takes exactly 1.300 seconds to fully recharge the damage taken from a spider bullet.
• Spiders can fire bullets every 0.600 seconds, but ideally should fire bullets every 0.900 seconds to maintain optimal energy levels.

These values assume both ships are stationary, and in most cases you need an additional bullet to kill your target:

• It takes five consecutive hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 2.400 seconds.
• If you miss a bullet it require a total of six bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 3.600 seconds.
• If you miss two bulletsit would require a total of seven bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 4.800 seconds.
• If you miss three bullets it would require a total of eight bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 6.000 seconds.

Theoretically speaking this ship is absolutely broken, but also requires far more skill to be properly utilized as you have to make most shots count to make a noticeable difference. Nevertheless in the hands of a skilled player it is too strong and should be slightly toned down.

My proposal is to change the recharge rate down to 340 energy per second. This change would not ruin the identity of the ship, but would make it slightly easier to deal with in a flag room battle where its ability to tank bullets and recharge energy back in such a short amount of time is far too strong. The adjusted recharge rate would change the numbers to these:

• It would take between 3.971 and 4.412 seconds to fully recharge the energy depending on starting energy value.
• It would take exactly 1.530 seconds to fully recharge the damage taken from a spider bullet.
• It would take five consecutive hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 2.400 seconds.
• If you miss a bullet it would take a total of five bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 3.000 seconds.
• If you miss two bullets it would require a total of six bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 4.200 seconds.
• If you miss three bullets it would require a total of seven bullet hits to kill the target from full energy over the course of 5.400 seconds.

[Falconeer]

Specials ruin basing and make competitive matches more like pub. I formally propose that specials be banned from TWL-B.

Further, it's fascinating that TWL ops decided to completely dismantle terrier by removing greenable ports/bursts/full charges and to take away shark strength by removing 5 shrap, effectively ruining ships that some of us have played for 20 years. Core basing ships. They even chose to remove rockets from jav, which isn't played nearly as often. Yet somehow warbird has stayed exactly the same. Decisions were made to tamper with every ship that many people play on a daily basis, but chose to leave the one ship that hardly anyone plays alone.

If specials are not to be banned from TWL-B, then I formally propose that warbird be weakened just like every other core basing ship in the game was weakened this season, especially if a playoffs/finals contender is choosing to use a warbird in TWL-B this season. My proposal consists of some variation of decreasing the strength of a warbird bullet so that it does 50-70% of current damage, such that it cannot inflict a 1-hit kill.

Why do you care if wb does a 1 hit kill, when spider can 1 hit kill a warbird too?

As well it's usually 4 spiders on one team and one 1 wb on the other. That's potentially up to 3 spider bullets flying from a spider at one time, so there could potentially be 8-12 spider bullets flying at a warbird that can 1 hit kill it. Though i'm actually all for 70% damage, but I would do that to Jav bombs XD... in Jav Duel.

I never agreed with removing rockets from Jav or shrap from shark. Though the shark thing is debatable and I never really got into the pros and cons of it, so undecided really.

I think TWL-B is boring, and I don't mean that as an insult to TW or you guys who like it. I'm just bored/find it boring, I can't change how I feel about it. I've tried.

[Pressure]

For some reason I thought specials were banned in TWDT-B. Will edit my OP but that wasn't the main argument anyway.

[ogron]

Specials ruin basing and were banned from TWDT-B

I'd rate this statement 4 Pinocchios.

Specials were never banned in TWDT. In fact, Dreamwin uses them every season.

Specials were mandatory in TWDT-B for many years, and that requirement was removed around 2012 or 2013. I think you're confusing the two.

[Banks]

I second this, take specials out, it ruins the purity of basing, in the most important league.