TWL format is shit are we trying to kill the zone?

[MousE]

This is strictly from a basing perspective and I made this post because I just read through the post on roster limits and started thinking how shit this format is for a lot of people who play this game.

1) STACKING!!!!! This format is just a huge TW arms race! An easy example stems from a lack of sharks/terrs. In the last DT there was only 5 10* sharks in it and currently 2 of them are on the same team. I mean its good strat just doesn't seem very fair. Stacking has also been exacerbated by the roster limit, because it means people who play all 3 leagues will want to play together and it makes elites who play all 3 ships super OP... Go figure they stacked together in Cupheads! This is a huge roster advantage also because they are able to add a few 1 ship specialists and have depth for all 3 leagues. I am not upset with them about this I think it is the smart thing to do, but it does give them an unfair advantage. That is how this league is though. if you arn't stacking 9* + at every position you won't have a shot IMO!

2) Newer players get totally fucked and don't get to play in TWL - No top squad is going to recruit a noob for this and as stated by Lee with the new roster limits mean new players won't even be on TWL rosters this year. I don't think many people are going to want to TWL with a group of people that have limited experience... Who the fuck is going to show up every Sunday to get crushed in a game from the 90s!!! I mean we can see that with juice in BD where squads prefer not to play them cuz the lines are so imbalanced and that is just in BD, let alone a full TWL roster.

3) Limited player base & lack of teams - in DTs we can easily have 8 competitive teams, but we lose teams for TWL (last year 6 teams with 1 losing every game - that couldn't have been fun and would make me want to quit playing for sure). losing player participation isn't exactly good in a game of this size. How many teams have even currently have full basing lines this year + a sub in case someone can't make a game lol.

4) Roster Cap - clearly this hasn't helped the way it was supposed to (make more squads). I don't see any more squads for basing this year so what is the point of the cap exactly? make 3 shippers OP???? I don't even know why anyone who actually wants to play the league join a squad where they will just bench anyway so what is the cap for????

5) Same squad for all 3 leagues - I am not sure why this is a thing and why people want it so much. You should be able to do this if you want to, but why is it an issue if u play with diff teams for diff leagues? We are actually losing competitive teams this way because we are forced to be with the same squad for all 3 with tight rosters. Saw myth and beam talkin about this yesterday... beam just suggested to him to merge with another squad and cut his players to do it.... this is fucking ridiculous in a game with so few people.

This league has some huge flaws IMO and is gonna come down to a few teams battling for who has the most stacked roster....
in base currently there are 4 top teams that have a shot to win IMO no offence to anyone else just the 4 teams are all closer to 10*. Having a league, which is only fun for 32 people in a zone is dumb.... (oh yea 2 of those top 4 don't even have a full team yet)

yikes

[Mythril]

Combining all three leagues under one limit isn't just failing to create more parity, it's actually making it worse than before. Apparently I'm not allowed to hold this opinion because I'm on Lion (?). But what's hilarious is the only reason there's more than 2 competitive squads in TWLD is because I chose not to abuse this format even further and I helped create a third competitive squad. I guess if I decided to join Cuphead/Strike and turned TWL into a two squad league, the flaws of the current system would have been easier to understand for some people.

The fix is a simple one. You can do it two ways and it takes almost no effort to change in the rules. You can increase the cap to something bigger like 18. Or you can do the obvious fix that has worked wonders the last two seasons: Separate the basing roster from the dueling roster. Keep your strict roster limit. Not a fan of double squadding? That's fine too. I personally don't think it's a necessary thing to enforce, and less than 5 people did it anyway, but go ahead and make double squadding illegal if you want.

Just separate the rosters. That alone removes both the penalty of having a one-league player and the advantage of having a multi-league player which is creating all the issues in the current format.

It's not hard to imagine because Turban has already done it: Do something like make LD/LJ rosters 13. Then make basing rosters also 13. A pure spider can sit on the basing roster. A pure warbird can sit on the dueling roster. That way, they both don't hurt each other's chances in leagues THEY DON'T EVEN PLAY by not being a two-league star. That team could have 20 players total on the squad, but be divided into the separate rosters they've been recruited to play for. It's a simple and elegant fix created by Turban that helped create more competition the last two seasons and would quickly do the same for this season. Maybe a squad with a bunch of three-leaguers really only need 13 players to make it work, that's great. But that's clearly not going to be possible for everyone, and forcing it to be so is hurting the level of competition.

So I've yet to see the argument as to why forcing a limit of 13 on all three leagues, when not everyone plays more than 1 league but many do, makes more sense than just splitting the rosters up. How is this change creating more competition and parity than last season? I'm not seeing the evidence anywhere.

[Tiny]

I completely understand what everyone is saying and agree to a certain extent, but my question is, how many players are going to use the split roster system? If I recall, I remember, maybe less than 5 people, could be less, players using the the split roster system that made any difference . I think the adding the split system with this format is not the answer, but if you really wanted to do something, allow less teams AND split rosters. In the current state and squads allowed in, the amount of floating players that could change competitiveness is sooo very low from splitting. In the end, we A) don’t have enough 3 leaguers to go around, so any amount of combining 3 leaguers is going to be harder to beat, 2 leaguers etc, and B) will always have favorites in leagues and make people feel it’s unfair and something needs to change. I do think it does help some people, like myself, who have specialized in a ship for so many years, but have practiced wb for many years, only to be benched for 3 leaguers/ specialty wbs, and may actually have a chance to sub or play for some small roster team that may not have starters show every week. For every argument , there is an argument against.

In the end, I think there are 3 options:

A) keep as is, and it will hurt some squads by not allowing them to stack inactive players and backups to counter multi league squads, but also allow people like myself to get some league action.

B) open up multi rosters, will maybe help a couple squads with A player (can’t see this swinging leagues)

C) shrink amount of squads allowed in and open up split rosters. Kind of late, will dissolve squads, change rosters completely, some will stay the same, but in the end, will still have the same amount of favorites.

Just looking at Javs, and I’m no wb or baser so I won’t even speculate, you have 4 clear favorites plus an underdog team. Out of 10 teams, that’s pretty good. How many leagues have 30-40% teams that are capable of winning?

I am currently drinking heavily and probably biased, so this may sound reaaaally dumb later. Prepared to edit.

[Rab]

Twl always killed the community coz of the great roster dissolve/hop/clusterfuck. I've said this every season since forever and nobody gave a fuck. Now your community is toxic and shit gj.

[apt]

This is strictly from a basing perspective and I made this post because I just read through the post on roster limits and started thinking how shit this format is for a lot of people who play this game.

1) STACKING!!!!! This format is just a huge TW arms race! An easy example stems from a lack of sharks/terrs. In the last DT there was only 5 10* sharks in it and currently 2 of them are on the same team. I mean its good strat just doesn't seem very fair. Stacking has also been exacerbated by the roster limit, because it means people who play all 3 leagues will want to play together and it makes elites who play all 3 ships super OP... Go figure they stacked together in Cupheads! This is a huge roster advantage also because they are able to add a few 1 ship specialists and have depth for all 3 leagues. I am not upset with them about this I think it is the smart thing to do, but it does give them an unfair advantage. That is how this league is though. if you arn't stacking 9* + at every position you won't have a shot IMO!

2) Newer players get totally fucked and don't get to play in TWL - No top squad is going to recruit a noob for this and as stated by Lee with the new roster limits mean new players won't even be on TWL rosters this year. I don't think many people are going to want to TWL with a group of people that have limited experience... Who the fuck is going to show up every Sunday to get crushed in a game from the 90s!!! I mean we can see that with juice in BD where squads prefer not to play them cuz the lines are so imbalanced and that is just in BD, let alone a full TWL roster.

3) Limited player base & lack of teams - in DTs we can easily have 8 competitive teams, but we lose teams for TWL (last year 6 teams with 1 losing every game - that couldn't have been fun and would make me want to quit playing for sure). losing player participation isn't exactly good in a game of this size. How many teams have even currently have full basing lines this year + a sub in case someone can't make a game lol.

4) Roster Cap - clearly this hasn't helped the way it was supposed to (make more squads). I don't see any more squads for basing this year so what is the point of the cap exactly? make 3 shippers OP???? I don't even know why anyone who actually wants to play the league join a squad where they will just bench anyway so what is the cap for????

5) Same squad for all 3 leagues - I am not sure why this is a thing and why people want it so much. You should be able to do this if you want to, but why is it an issue if u play with diff teams for diff leagues? We are actually losing competitive teams this way because we are forced to be with the same squad for all 3 with tight rosters. Saw myth and beam talkin about this yesterday... beam just suggested to him to merge with another squad and cut his players to do it.... this is fucking ridiculous in a game with so few people.

This league has some huge flaws IMO and is gonna come down to a few teams battling for who has the most stacked roster....
in base currently there are 4 top teams that have a shot to win IMO no offence to anyone else just the 4 teams are all closer to 10*. Having a league, which is only fun for 32 people in a zone is dumb.... (oh yea 2 of those top 4 don't even have a full team yet)

yikes

I agree with Mouse.


Solution:

I think TWL serves of no purpose in 2021 for what the game has become.

The most efficient solution is to keep TWDT as the only remaining league, outside of TWD. There is no work around to solve the constraints and problems faced with TWL today, outside of imposing a draft league.

An entire world that keeps the Trench Wars community alive and kicking everyday, won't have the opportunity to play TWL because of the way it is structured and the way players choose to operate.

Low to mid tier players won't have an opportunity to play in TWL and they dare not form a team to get their ass clobbered for 3 hours on a Sunday.

The fact that we are having TWL after witnessing the success of TWDT, makes no sense.

EDIT*, TL;DR

TWDT is a raw data set showcasing an individual players skill and their ability to integrate with their team.

TWL is a raw data set showcasing, not much of anything - I would say who can stack a better roster, but even still TWDT is a much better reflection of that for the captains involved.

But alas TWL will happen and there most likely be many more. Would be dope if more people were apt ( HEH ) to create squad a la Juice and try to be inclusive, but y'all not, y'all perpetuate in your own squad drama leaving and rejoining and leaving your same squads again, arguing over petty shit, while slowly the player base drains away because aforementioned petty shit.

[Majorcrisis2]

I completely understand what everyone is saying and agree to a certain extent, but my question is, how many players are going to use the split roster system? If I recall, I remember, maybe less than 5 people, could be less, players using the the split roster system that made any difference . I think the adding the split system with this format is not the answer, but if you really wanted to do something, allow less teams AND split rosters. In the current state and squads allowed in, the amount of floating players that could change competitiveness is sooo very low from splitting. In the end, we A) don’t have enough 3 leaguers to go around, so any amount of combining 3 leaguers is going to be harder to beat, 2 leaguers etc, and B) will always have favorites in leagues and make people feel it’s unfair and something needs to change. I do think it does help some people, like myself, who have specialized in a ship for so many years, but have practiced wb for many years, only to be benched for 3 leaguers/ specialty wbs, and may actually have a chance to sub or play for some small roster team that may not have starters show every week. For every argument , there is an argument against.

In the end, I think there are 3 options:

A) keep as is, and it will hurt some squads by not allowing them to stack inactive players and backups to counter multi league squads, but also allow people like myself to get some league action.

B) open up multi rosters, will maybe help a couple squads with A player (can’t see this swinging leagues)

C) shrink amount of squads allowed in and open up split rosters. Kind of late, will dissolve squads, change rosters completely, some will stay the same, but in the end, will still have the same amount of favorites.

Just looking at Javs, and I’m no wb or baser so I won’t even speculate, you have 4 clear favorites plus an underdog team. Out of 10 teams, that’s pretty good. How many leagues have 30-40% teams that are capable of winning?

I am currently drinking heavily and probably biased, so this may sound reaaaally dumb later. Prepared to edit.

Dunno where you are 4 clear favorites in jav. Cuphead, silence and strike could win it. Its more balanced than last season where fire was stacked as FK. But i dont think wb/jav got hurt by the current roster situation. If you look to the basing, it went from 5 competitive squads who all could have won to 2, silence having only one shark cant make them win atm. Did a bunch of basers quit? Or is it really hard to make a competitive basing squad atm?

[Rough]

Separate dueling and basing rosters like the last two seasons or however long it was. Keep the roster limit as is, probably lower it to 11..anyone thinking 13 is low is a complete moron.

Also, I blame hulk for everything.

[LeeRomeno]

I agree with Mouse.


Solution:

I think TWL serves of no purpose in 2021 for what the game has become.

The most efficient solution is to keep TWDT as the only remaining league, outside of TWD. There is no work around to solve the constraints and problems faced with TWL today, outside of imposing a draft league.

An entire world that keeps the Trench Wars community alive and kicking everyday, won't have the opportunity to play TWL because of the way it is structured and the way players choose to operate.

Low to mid tier players won't have an opportunity to play in TWL and they dare not form a team to get their ass clobbered for 3 hours on a Sunday.

The fact that we are having TWL after witnessing the success of TWDT, makes no sense.

EDIT*, TL;DR

TWDT is a raw data set showcasing an individual players skill and their ability to integrate with their team.

TWL is a raw data set showcasing, not much of anything - I would say who can stack a better roster, but even still TWDT is a much better reflection of that for the captains involved.

But alas TWL will happen and there most likely be many more. Would be dope if more people were apt ( HEH ) to create squad a la Juice and try to be inclusive, but y'all not, y'all perpetuate in your own squad drama leaving and rejoining and leaving your same squads again, arguing over petty shit, while slowly the player base drains away because aforementioned petty shit.

Let me add an EG perspective to this story, as I have a feeling that it may happen to TW, what happened to EG before.
So EGFL/EGL used to be sort of similar leagues as TWL is to TW in EG. Its main purpose was to have the ultimate battleground between squads that fought entire year in pub/squadmatches etc. Same squads went throughout years, at times died, then were remade (Risinblood, Blood, Silence, Trespass, Mutiny etc), but there was not much squadhopping and not much stacking. EGFL used to be the most important league, only hosted once per year.
Then at some point in mid 00s, draft league was introduced. At first it was considered as a sort of fun but weird league, but lets say 5-6 years later, it was by far the most competitive league there. Mainly because of all vp rules (value points, so similar point system as in tw) and new players able to prove themselves with top players and new rosters being made every time, so you could play with ppl u had not before, kept things interesting.
At last couple of seasons EGFL or EGBDL (baseduel league) were still hosted, but there were really no real squads left anymore. So it sort of felt like what is happening in TW now, most of squads get made for TWL and dissolve after. It used to be real squads that were around for entire year take part in 1 important league, but in last couple of leagues we had similar situation. Vets just stacking and leagues were pretty boring events between max 4 squads and a few newb ones. So for last 4-5 years EG only had draft leagues as noone really wanted egfl anymore as it lost any sense.

I feel like this may be inevitable also in TW, as i do not really see real squads and loyal ppl in those squads in TW anymore.

[make tw great again]

The severe drop in roster limit and “hoping” it will make other players create more squads is a bit of a pipe dream. What happens to those players that can’t really commit to building a squad and would like to show up occasionally? Well, under these provisions, you are potentially cutting more of a limited player base.

[Riverside]

Cutting roster the way it was done was the right move, but to me it only works if we had forced some sort of salary cap. It would have forced the type of competitiveness we were looking for and added a couple more reasonable powerhouses, as opposed to what we're seeing now.

I don't think it's too late. Each person has their ratings, and they're able to choose where they want to play. Doesn't matter how many stars you have in the game, it's more about the number of stars you have on each roster (or in each league). It's how the major sports organizations do it, y not use a proven concept (i.e. NBA/NHL etc). The hard parts of ratings are already there...

The salary cap of each team wud b subject 2 change based off the number of ppl on the roster, so you can't abuse it and stack 9 10* wbs on one roster.



PS: i didn't mean to vs you before Mythril , ur right about how it began and what ur intentions were, it was jus frustrating to see what it turned into (a few people agreed w me which prompted the unreasonable post vs u yday)

[renzi]

Let me add an EG perspective to this story, as I have a feeling that it may happen to TW, what happened to EG before.
So EGFL/EGL used to be sort of similar leagues as TWL is to TW in EG. Its main purpose was to have the ultimate battleground between squads that fought entire year in pub/squadmatches etc. Same squads went throughout years, at times died, then were remade (Risinblood, Blood, Silence, Trespass, Mutiny etc), but there was not much squadhopping and not much stacking. EGFL used to be the most important league, only hosted once per year.
Then at some point in mid 00s, draft league was introduced. At first it was considered as a sort of fun but weird league, but lets say 5-6 years later, it was by far the most competitive league there. Mainly because of all vp rules (value points, so similar point system as in tw) and new players able to prove themselves with top players and new rosters being made every time, so you could play with ppl u had not before, kept things interesting.
At last couple of seasons EGFL or EGBDL (baseduel league) were still hosted, but there were really no real squads left anymore. So it sort of felt like what is happening in TW now, most of squads get made for TWL and dissolve after. It used to be real squads that were around for entire year take part in 1 important league, but in last couple of leagues we had similar situation. Vets just stacking and leagues were pretty boring events between max 4 squads and a few newb ones. So for last 4-5 years EG only had draft leagues as noone really wanted egfl anymore as it lost any sense.

I feel like this may be inevitable also in TW, as i do not really see real squads and loyal ppl in those squads in TW anymore.

I get what you’re saying and you’re right. Used to be a time you could easily label a group of players by their “home” squad, such as “disoblige”, “-final-“, “mambo”, etc (I could go on, too many squads) players because you would see the same core group playing together on the same squad for literal years. Not sure what the solution is, but you’re right in that that aspect of the game and population is missing and is what made leagues like TWL successful back in the day. I agree with apt that the focus should probably be on TWDT, due to all the aforementioned reasons above.

[make tw great again]

Cutting roster the way it was done was the right move, but to me it only works if we had forced some sort of salary cap. It would have forced the type of competitiveness we were looking for and added a couple more reasonable powerhouses, as opposed to what we're seeing now.

I don't think it's too late. Each person has their ratings, and they're able to choose where they want to play. Doesn't matter how many stars you have in the game, it's more about the number of stars you have on each roster (or in each league). It's how the major sports organizations do it, y not use a proven concept (i.e. NBA/NHL etc). The hard parts of ratings are already there...

The salary cap of each team wud b subject 2 change based off the number of ppl on the roster, so you can't abuse it and stack 9 10* wbs on one roster.



PS: i didn't mean to vs you before Mythril , ur right about how it began and what ur intentions were, it was jus frustrating to see what it turned into (a few people agreed w me which prompted the unreasonable post vs u yday)

A rating system is for draft league. Why are we forcing those settings onto TWL? TWL should allow players to play with their friends. I understand rostersneed to be trimmed a little, Myth’s proposal is beyond reasonable. However, the current strict roster settings really prohibit the casual players that want to play with their friends from time to time.

Are we really trying to eliminate the casual players that want to show up every once in a while? This doesn't sound all that fair to me.

[apt]

A rating system is for draft league. Why are we forcing those settings onto TWL? TWL should allow players to play with their friends. I understand rostersneed to be trimmed a little, Myth’s proposal is beyond reasonable. However, the current strict roster settings really prohibit the casual players that want to play with their friends from time to time.

Are we really trying to eliminate the casual players that want to show up every once in a while? This doesn't sound all that fair to me.

?

Casual players that show up once in a while play TWD, the weekend structure of TWDT and TWL is the same, how does this restrict anyone from playing? TWDT format enables more people to play, diversifies competition and allows a greater range of players to participate, from casual to super serious.

That being said, I like the concepts of still having a home team so to speak etc, whether TWDT needs to be re-defined if it were to become the "home" league of the zone, is up to discussion, but to still satisfy the need to play with your "Stacked" friends, we could implement a sort of single-elimination TWD Cup, that would not run over the course of 2-3 months like TWL, but occur over the course of one weekend, as a solution to satisfy both.

But, to eliminate a whole legion of players for 2-3 months for the sake of TWL, doesn't make sense - considering all the obstacles described in this thread.

[make tw great again]

?

Casual players that show up once in a while play TWD, the weekend structure of TWDT and TWL is the same, how does this restrict anyone from playing? TWDT format enables more people to play, diversifies competition and allows a greater range of players to participate, from casual to super serious.

That being said, I like the concepts of still having a home team so to speak etc, whether TWDT needs to be re-defined if it were to become the "home" league of the zone, is up to discussion, but to still satisfy the need to play with your "Stacked" friends, we could implement a sort of single-elimination TWD Cup, that would not run over the course of 2-3 months like TWL, but occur over the course of one weekend, as a solution to satisfy both.

But, to eliminate a whole legion of players for 2-3 months for the sake of TWL, doesn't make sense - considering all the obstacles described in this thread.

I understand TWDT and TWL have the same Sunday concept, but the comparison should end there. The rating system, in which TWDT is operated on, has never been a concept TWL has ran on. It was about friends playing amongst their friends.

I understand the rosters need to be somewhat governed but the proposal Myth brought up makes so much more sense. This right here is a radical shift to what TWL has been known for and is gradually turning into a TWDT II.

[kentaro]

The severe drop in roster limit and “hoping” it will make other players create more squads is a bit of a pipe dream. What happens to those players that can’t really commit to building a squad and would like to show up occasionally? Well, under these provisions, you are potentially cutting more of a limited player base.

I guess myself and a couple others would fall in that category, I definitely do not have enough drive to go out of my way and commit my Sunday just to play TW. Though if I happened to have nothing better to do I wouldn't mind playing either. How its set up now, I just rather say I'm out all together rather than be relied to show in whatever squad I join

Not really for or against the caps (was it not like this last TWL too? lol im clueless) but just sharing my thoughts as one of "those" players you are mentioning.