Tiebreaker

[brookus]

I think it would depend on the tie in question. If it was to decide who gets into playoffs, there should be a head-to-head single game playoff for those teams. You wouldn't even have to extend the season either, simply play the tie-breaker match before the scheduled playoff match. Obviously, if three teams end up tied, this plan falls apart.

If it's just for ranking between playoff teams, head-to-head record should decide it.

llater,
Tony B

[Vykromond]

I think it would depend on the tie in question. If it was to decide who gets into playoffs, there should be a head-to-head single game playoff for those teams. You wouldn't even have to extend the season either, simply play the tie-breaker match before the scheduled playoff match. Obviously, if three teams end up tied, this plan falls apart.

If it's just for ranking between playoff teams, head-to-head record should decide it.

llater,
Tony B

has brookus ever been wrong? i don't think i've ever disagreed with this guy

[Nethila]

And rand and whoever else disagreed. Isnt twl supposed to be the best league in tw and the most competitive? Head to Head insures that everyone will take every game with importance because they know any loss could bite them in the ass. You say u guys had a better Starting 5 jav lineup then us, this could be true, but you guys lost cuz u only had 5 people that can actually jav. Depth is an important part of a team so i dont think the excuse of "we didnt show our best players" is a reason why we shouldnt go with head to head over +/-. The only weakness in head to head is that people dont show up every week. With +/- ther are bigger weaknesses such as, Difference in schedules, Teams falling apart and getting free wins or being replaced with weaker squads that all fuck up the +/-.

head to head has a big flaw too.
squad changes during as season progress. Also, even without changes, the players' way of playing and skill change too. Look at last season, a-s lost to pallies during regular season, but heh, maybe we are just lucky, but we beat pallies in the finals.

also, for a 3 way tie, where A beat B, B beat C, C beat A, head to head wouldnt work at all.

edit: IMO, if it has to happen, there really should be a replay weekend for those who are tied for a playoff spot.

[Cig Smoke]

both systems have flaws just that head to head's flaws arent as big or as common as +/-. The simple and ez thing to do would be do what brookus saaid and have a game between the 2 squads taht are tied. That way u could see who is more deserving, but if i had to choose between +/- and head2head i'd definatly go head to head.

[bloodzombie]

is it possible for squads to be tied? I figured the scores are stored as a floating point number and rounded to an integer only for the scoreboard purposes, and this would make a tie exceedingly unlikely.

you have a meth lab in your basement, don't you?

[Violence]

dont u understand that with +/- some squads might win 50-0 cuz one squad drops out. OR for example Squad A and Squad b both have to play shriek, but Shriek Dissolves after playing Squad A, and gets replaced with Wingmasters so squad B gets to play wingmasters instead of Shriek. The only flaw in Head to Head is that some squads might not have ther best lineup all the time, but thats why it is important to have A deep team with alot of people that can play well not just 5 good players. Head to Head is much better and makes sure everyone plays ther best.

[brookus]

head to head delays playoffs.

It doesn't have to. Last season, two rounds of playoffs were played on the same weekend for some squads. What's the difference?

...and always the squad that lost during the reg season loses the head to head, even if the losing squad is extremely better, somehow they end up losing.

You argument is faulty. By that reasoning, why have playoffs at all? If a team goes undefeated in the regular season, they should automatically be declared the champion. It's certainly an option, but I think TWL decided it didn't want to be like NCAA football in the US.

llater,
Tony B

[Decypha]

this post is in repsonse to Rand's.

On Any Given Sunday, any team can win, and any team can lose.

i hate to quote a movie, but its true. tie breakers shouldnt have any bearing on "who had the better jav lineup" but it should indeed be broken with head to head match ups. you can claim you had poor attendance that week, but who is to say that you wont have poor attendance one week in the playoffs. then what does that do? if you lost head to head vs. someone and you end up tied with them at the end of the season, the winner of the regular season head to head matchup should be in the playoffs, i dont care who is on the roster.

for instance, say Dice (using them because they are best in javs atm.) has 'poor attendance' and finishes the season 6-4, and they finish tied with Rusher. and in their head to head, Rusher won. Dice for sure has better javs, but why should who they can field have any bearing on who they did play that game and failed to win? and then looking at the +/- dice is +14 better than Rusher, but Rusher can claim 'we only lost to *insert bad squad here* because of poor attendance, if we had all 5 starters we would have won.'

and like vio or someone said, 50-0 forfeits suck. and say with the Dice/Rusher scenario that Dice had 2 forfeit wins. +/- has alot more flaws than head to head. if Disoblige lost to Rusher because only Da1andonly and Lemon showed up and we were forced to play 3 wbs, would anyone else really care or listen to the arguement that 'if our guys showed up we would have won!', or would they just look at it as 'sucks for you, get more reliable players.' i know i'd go with the 2nd option, no matter what squad it was.

[jeem]

that movie sucked

[bloodzombie]

I tend to agree with decypa

A bad day results in a loss, that's the way it goes... there's big games in every season... with a head-to-head system, it's more likely that every game is a big game.

[Bob (SRB)]

rapid's starters in lj were better than gv's anyways, so whoever made that argument, it doesn't stand.

Also take into account, not only do squads get a 50-0 win to give an unfair advantage in +/-, lots of times other squads can't even show 5 people so they get to play 5v4 or 5v3 and get even more unfair +/-

[Awesome]

I don't know if you are trying to imply that either Pirates or Grapevine ever got a 50-0 win due to a forfeit, but it isn't true. All 3 of us all played the same squads except for we each had different 2 cross-conference squad matchups. It seems it's also being implied you are at a disadvantage because you had to face Shriek in that cross-conference play. Only difference between our schedule and yours is that we played Disoblige and you got Ancients. We both did play Shriek to clear the record and next year if you'd prefer to face diso rather than ancients, i'd gladly switch.

[Epinephrine]

Just to clarify:

9.2 Game Scoring and Results
9.21 If a game ends by result of a forfeit, the losing team will be given a score of 0 wins and 50 losses. The winning team will receive a score of 50 wins and 25 losses.

(similar rules for TWLJ and TWLB)
==================================

As for the head to head and +/- situation, I personally prefer +/- anyday. Head to head means that one lucky game matters more than a complete season performace. So you're saying that in the event that one team beats all their opponents by significant margins, loses by a little bit, and another wins by very little, loses in blowouts but beats the other team they're tied with they deserve to be in the playoffs more? That's BS IMO.

Another fun reason for head to head is it means the season ends a bit later. Imagine if a team is 6-3 going into the last round as 4th, and the 5th place team has 4 losses and they beat them in an earlier round. They basically have a free week, and it's less fun to watch the playoff race!

That said, uneven schedules due to dropouts/cross conference play does end up hurting +/-. I'm just not sure that head to head is the way to go. No matter what's chosen, in the end people will bitch about it so I say just stick with what's there. Actually since a 'bad day' can be due to such things as lag and someone unable to show up thanks to RL commitments I can pretty much guarantee the creation of more whining if the current system is changed. Everything from bitching about lag to corrupt mods making a corrupt schedule, to mid-tier squads overusing scheduling tactics against others so that they ensure their best pilots won't show up because they know it's vitally important for them not to lose this game (instead of having the luxary of making it up later or before by beating another good squad the squad they're now playing lost to).

Brookus - playing extra games in playoffs suck. If you're in all three playoffs, and you have a tiebreaker game in there somewhere for 4 games it's an extremely horrible thing to go through. An extra round of play is also out of the question thanks to people bitching (although it would work if people didn't bitch), so I think you'd need to use either the current system or the proposed change.

Apt- Not every league uses the 'head to head' system first. Pro League (and I think all of Premier league) which I used as a model for the TWL rules uses +/- first, or did when I created the current rules for TWL.

Pjotter - your system ensures that absolutely no one knows the final rankings until the very last game is played. That's a bad idea IMO because it makes the league too complex for everyone to have a good idea of the standings.

-Epi

[Fit of Rage]

As for the head to head and +/- situation, I personally prefer +/- anyday. Head to head means that one lucky game matters more than a complete season performace. So you're saying that in the event that one team beats all their opponents by significant margins, loses by a little bit, and another wins by very little, loses in blowouts but beats the other team they're tied with they deserve to be in the playoffs more? That's BS IMO.

IMO its worse when a squad (Squad A) wins through +/- due to two forfits that put them above a team (Squad B) that receives the same 6-4 record but beat Squad A in head to head.

Go with head to head first. If the two squads haven't played each other, then go to +/-.

[Cig Smoke]

Agreed with fit here. Sure epi 1 lucky game could get u up on the head2head thing, but u forget that 1 forfeit coudl also get a team up on +/-. Or as vio and others are saying squads are unstable of late. Not every team has the same schedule. Its really not fair to go by +/- if say squad A has to play elusive, and squad B has to play aznmasters (example). I mean its clear to say that even if team A wins over elusive they will be getting hurt in +/- bc team B would probably win by more over aznmasters. If u want to go by +/- then everyone shou ld have an equal or close to equal schedule, which is almost imposible to do.