Small Update

[Late]

Originally posted by Dabram
Btw Epi, is there going to be a new TWDJ map or is it going to be just like that current Javs map? Maybe we should've a poll about if it should be changed or not.

I think 2dragons is working on it or there is not coming a new map. (I know cuz I am a member of TWDev)

[Force of Nature]

Originally posted by Dabram
Dude, picking up greens hoping it's a full charge reduces the skill-level of dueling. Not only are full charges all about luck, it's also not something you can be better at than other players.

Hmm since this is your only relavent argument let me address this. You CAN be better than other people in picking up greens. Let me illustrate:

Greens don't move and they are there in a certain location of space. Therefore running into them IS intentional.

Once or twice might be luck but it can and is a playing style. I've seen numerous people head out to a section where their are greens or shoot when there are green so they can get the next one. If you want an example of someone who uses this effectively (remember I was only new to it) try watching Blood or Raspi next time.

Secondly, its not only the fact that you run into greens. You also have to time your shot properly that as soon as you pick it up are you are aiming in the right direction and also shooting. This requires effort. Its not very simple to do it. If you try it a couple of times you'll realise it. Its actually quite hard to make sure you are aiming the right direction and time your shot correctly when you are backing away.

As for Epi's concern of phantom greens.
Let me answer this by a sentense.
The most random thing in a dueling area not greens or rocks or energy recharge by cheats, its LAG.

Unless you eliminate lag you can't eliminate total randomness in the match. The phantom greens are a result of lag. Its the same as in a base match when people run through other people's mines because the server shows as if the mine isn't there on their screen. So it is in a sense your fault you don't see the green due to your lag?
More than greens the more annonying thing that is far more random is the amount of hits you recieve due to lag.

Let me illustrate this one as well.

You rush this person and you get a direct hit on them. But alas! they don't die, they just turn around and shoot you in the face while you're stunned and continue. This happens way more frequently than fantom greens and is already a greater factor in the randomness in a duel match.

For all you people who don't know let me tell you another factor that involves randomness which now relates to rocks. If you noticed that if you scrape by a rock you induce server lag. For that instant you spike on the other person's computer which inturn can be used to your advantage to kill the opponent because he has no idea wher e you are. I've seen this used many times as well and illustrates how rocks do contribute to the randomness to the match. And in return of what epi said, they too should be removed because they induce randomness which can be eliminated.

But really, certain amount of randomness is always present and is impossible to get rid of completely. Phantom greens don't appear that often as epi suggests compared to other "random" factors. And I still think it would be unfair for people who do use the stratergy to get greens. (remember that I'm not very good at it and taking them away will even my skill level with the players who do use it effectively) An even more elaborate example than phantom greens are duds. This i've seen occur far more than phantom greens. The first thing that should be taken out even before greens are ever considered is duds. This by far, easily surpase the phantom greens.

In effect, it would only improve my situation as a dueler if greens are taken out. So I win either way whether they are taken out or not. But by each thing that is removed less and less variation is possible in different playing styles. For example, if rocks are removed for the effect of randomness then people who hide behind rocks (no matter how lame that is ) will not be able to do it anymore and will only take the state of dueling to a narrow playing style.

[THE PUSHER]

Allow me to remove the argument over skill from this discussion, and offer another point on why we removed the greens.

Do any of you remember last seasons Light vs Seige playoff game? Of course you do. Then you should remember that Crome wen't arena to arena messaging the match, zone advertised it several times, and private messaged as many squads as he could to come and watch this little 5 v 5 event. The enormous turnout (165 people at the height, or 1/3 of the entire zone) caused an abnormally high amount of full charge greens to come into effect. High arena population increases the amount of FC greens. So I ask, is this fair? (And no, I am not asking whether Crome spamming his match was fair.) Is it fair that FC greens be so prevelant that all a player need to do is rush around and run into a green to shoot?

Let's all give it a try, at least for one season. If it makes that much of a difference, we can change it back for next year. Honestly, I think this will introdude a new dimension of skill to dueling and javs.

-PUSH

[Latrine]

I love it when FoN makes long and intelligent posts and then staff completely ignores him.

Personally, I'd prefer kill only greens with 100% chance of being full charges. I think that would be tactically interesting and would not be unbalanced by the number of players spectating the game.

[Epinephrine]

Originally posted by Latrine
I love it when FoN makes long and intelligent posts and then staff completely ignores him.

FoN makes some points yes, but he also completely ignored our points. IMO greens in TWLD and TWLJ is akin to having shrap in TWLJ. There are those who will say that shrap can be aimed and so on, just like how FoN will say that there's skill in using greens.

After much deliberation and talking with a lot of people Pusher and I arrived at the decision that removing greens was the way to go. If it really doesn't work out, then we'll revert. Until then, why don't we at least try no greens? We're not adding some kind of powerup that destablizes the game, we're simply taking away an inherent random factor, that as FoN admitted himself cannot be controlled thanks to lag.



Dabram, as for the TWLJ arena I am waiting for Thorn to finish tiling that map. Once that is done, I'll finish it up and put up the necessary changes to the map. Yes there will be changes, and I'm going to take your earlier suggestions to heart to some degree (I still have that map you made on my HD).

-Epi

[Mythrandir]

Originally posted by Force of Nature
For all you people who don't know let me tell you another factor that involves randomness which now relates to rocks. If you noticed that if you scrape by a rock you induce server lag. For that instant you spike on the other person's computer which inturn can be used to your advantage to kill the opponent because he has no idea wher e you are.

Let me clarify this a bit more.

Moving near a rock doesn't induce lag, but you can 'jump' on the screen of other players by using the following trick:


Apart from the player itself, no other player knows the _exact_ location of that player at that time.

Imagine playerA is moving towards an asteroid, if he wouldn't change his direction and speed, he will miss that asteroid by a few pixels. Now right (milliseconds) before he is passing that asteroid he changes your direction a bit, so he _will_ hit that asteroid. He hits the asteroid and bounces back.
The continuum clients of nearby flying players won't notice this in time and so they'll show the location of playerA as if he missed the rock. A few hundred milliseconds later the continuum client of playerA sends an update of its location, and voilá: playerA "jumped" on the screen.

--------


And I support FoN with his ideas

[Louis XV]

Can't hurt to try it out without the greens for a while.

[Force of Nature]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
FoN makes some points yes, but he also completely ignored our points. IMO greens in TWLD and TWLJ is akin to having shrap in TWLJ. There are those who will say that shrap can be aimed and so on, just like how FoN will say that there's skill in using greens.

After much deliberation and talking with a lot of people Pusher and I arrived at the decision that removing greens was the way to go. If it really doesn't work out, then we'll revert. Until then, why don't we at least try no greens? We're not adding some kind of powerup that destablizes the game, we're simply taking away an inherent random factor, that as FoN admitted himself cannot be controlled thanks to lag.

-Epi

Epi please don't twist my words to say something completely different. Next thing don't make the rebuttals personal please, keep them objective. Otherwise the otherside will have to resort to personal rebuttals to defend.

I am not ignoring your points. If I am ignoring points then state the points I'm ignoring. Infact the only person that has been ignoring points is you. You state that I make valid points, however do absolutely nothing to address it.

Secondly, I did say you can't control greens due to lag, however you can't control many things worse than greens due to lag! What I was trying to say there is you cant say you're taking out greens since they are produce randomness. For instance duds. This is more of a factor of randomness than greens will ever be.

And greens aren't akin to shrap. Let me illustrate. A bomb whether you intend to aim sharp or not will always produce shrap. Hence most shrap kills are not voluntary. However, this is different in the case of greens. You HAVE to run into them to get their benifit. There is no if, no buts etc. You voluntary run into them. Even after you run into them, you HAVE to make the decision to shoot and even after that you HAVE to aim your shot. If all these conditions are met then you will kill your opponent. If they are not met you won't kill your opponent hence a huge difference when comparing to shrap.

Now, for pusher's argument. How is it fair? I'll tell you how is it fair by and illustration.

Ok ever had a situation where you couldn't aproach a person because he was hiding behind a rock or the fact that you shoot it was a direct hit but it hit a rock which they moved behind? How is that fair? What about when you shot 4 shots that were dead on but hit rocks and after he shoots one to kill you. Now, how is that fair? Its fair because both of you were given the same oppurtunity to use your surroundings. In the game you explained before pusher, its fair because both team had the oppurtunity to use greens. Therefore, the team which used it better won. End of story. If its accepted with rocks it should be accepted with greens too.

Secondly, you ask to try it out for one season. I say be reasonable. Are you keeping statistics of how players are performing between last twl and this new one. How do you know it made a difference? The game will continue whether they are there or not. However, the element of greens will be lost forever. Hence narrowing the scope of dueling. This is my main concern.

On a different note, Epi please don't change the TWLJ map without consent with the majority. There are a lot of things that are good about the current map which other maps don't provide including the map Dab produced. And a lot of people that I know would be against changing the current map. I personally have no problem with changing the map, however changing it to a map which resembles the elim arena is definetely not the way to go. If you want arguments on that I can give you a whole bunch in a different post.

Edit: grammer, hasty post before.

[KJW]

Either way doesn't matter to me .... see how easy I am

However, on a different matter I think shrap should be removed from leagues base game play as it was from leagues Jav game play.

[Dabram]

Originally posted by Force of Nature
Epi please don't twist my words to say something completely different.

I am not ignoring your points. If I am ignoring points then state the points I'm ignoring. Infact the only people ignoring points is you. You state that I make valid points, however do absolutely nothing to address it.

Secondly, I did say you can't control greens due to lag, however you can't control many things worse than greens due to lag! What I was trying to say there is you cant say you're taking out greens since they are produce randomness. For instance duds. This is more of a factor of randomness than greens will ever be.

And greens aren't akin to shrap. Let me illustrate. A bomb whether you intend to aim sharp or not will always produce shrap. Hence most shrap kills are not voluntary. However, this is different in the case of greens. You HAVE to run into them to get their benifit. There is no if, no, buts etc. You voluntary run into them. Even after you run into them, you HAVE to make the decision to shoot and even after that you HAVE to aim your shot. If all these conditions are met then you will kill your opponent. If they are not met you won't kill your opponent hence no difference.

Now, for pusher's argument. How is it fair? I'll tell you how is it fair by and illustration and an example.

Ok ever had a situation where you couldn't aproach a person because he was hiding behind a rock or the fact that you shoot it was a direct hit but it hit a rock which he moved over? How is that fair? Because you could have shot 4 shots which hit rocks and he shoots one to kill you. Now, how is that fair? Its fair because both of you were given the same oppurtunity to use your surroundings. In the game you explained to pusher, its fair because both team had the oppurtunity to use greens. Therefore, the team which used it better won. End of story. If its accepted with rocks it should be accepted with greens too.

Secondly, you ask to try it out for one season. I say be reasonable. Are you keeping statistics of how players are performing between last twl and this new one. How do you know it made a difference? The game will continue whether they are there or not. However, the element of greens will be lost forever. Hence narrowing the scope of dueling. This is my main concern.

On a different note, Epi please don't change the TWLJ map without consent with the majority. There are a lot of things that are good about the current map which other maps don't provide including the map Dab produced. And a lot of people that I know would be against changing the current map. I personally have no problem with changing the map, however changing it to a map which resembles the elim arena is definetely not the way to go. If you want arguments on that I can give you a whole bunch in a different post.

1. Don't compare greens with duds. The less randomness the better, yes there are more duds then kills by a lucky full charge but does that mean full charges should not be removed???

2. Full charges and shraps are in someway the same. Shrapkills are often luck, which means shrap is hardly ever used for skilled kills. Full charges gives you the chance to have a lucky and unfair chance to get a kill while you just shot already. Both take no skill, and you don't want a league that has a lot of luck/randomness involved in it.

3. IF someone is sitting behind a rock, he's a sitting duck for your team, so it's an easy pie kill... And the thing about greens is that you don't know whether it is a full charge or not, so a team that gets luckier with the full charges can get a lot of 'lucky' kills that way. Also if you get chased by a player it means YOU fucked up by wasting energy by shooting on a wrong moment, so you deserve to be chased by that player. It's just completly lame that you can get a full charge so you can correct your own stupid move. You fuck up so you should find your own way out of it, try to run to ur teammates, bounce of rocks/walls, try to get away. I think an immediate full charge and a chance to kill your hunter is unfair..

4. It's always good to take a factor of luck out of the game, it makes it more based on skill.

5. I think there should be some kind of vote on what kind of map we want.



-bram

[Force of Nature]

Originally posted by Dabram
1. Don't compare greens with duds. The less randomness the better, yes there are more duds then kills by a lucky full charge but does that mean full charges should not be removed???

2. Full charges and shraps are in someway the same. Shrapkills are often luck, which means shrap is hardly ever used for skilled kills. Full charges gives you the chance to have a lucky and unfair chance to get a kill while you just shot already. Both take no skill, and you don't want a league that has a lot of luck/randomness involved in it.

3. IF someone is sitting behind a rock, he's a sitting duck for your team, so it's an easy pie kill... And the thing about greens is that you don't know whether it is a full charge or not, so a team that gets luckier with the full charges can get a lot of 'lucky' kills that way. Also if you get chased by a player it means YOU fucked up by wasting energy by shooting on a wrong moment, so you deserve to be chased by that player. It's just completly lame that you can get a full charge so you can correct your own stupid move. You fuck up so you should find your own way out of it, try to run to ur teammates, bounce of rocks/walls, try to get away. I think an immediate full charge and a chance to kill your hunter is unfair..

4. It's always good to take a factor of luck out of the game, it makes it more based on skill.

5. I think there should be some kind of vote on what kind of map we want.

-bram

1) Why not? I think its a legitimate comparision.

2)Wow, I just explained on how they are not the same. I don't understand why you still think they are the same. If you see someone run into greens back off otherwise you FUCKED UP because you didn't take into consideration it was a full charge. Actually it does take skill, since if it doesn't I'll like to see you do it consistantly and if it takes absolutely no skill everyone should be able to do it. But you don't see that happen?

3)What team duel games have you been playing? If someone is sitting behind a rock. It means he's waiting for the other team to shoot and then take a shot. Normally, his team is close by. Its quite effective, for example you don't get hit by so called "strays" by radar or even close shots, because you have the added protection of the rock. Reffering to your argument about escaping when you "FUCKED UP" is to try and get a green. It just increases possiblities you have to take into consideration.

4)Again I point out that it is less a factor of luck, but some people are too baised to see it. There are three voluntary steps you need to take to use a full charge effectively and hence can't be luck in that respect.

5)I agree their probably should be.

EDIT: hasty again.

[Dabram]

Originally posted by Force of Nature
Hmm since this is your only relavent argument let me address this. You CAN be better than other people in picking up greens. Let me illustrate:

Greens don't move and they are there in a certain location of space. Therefore running into them IS intentional.

Once or twice might be luck but it can and is a playing style. I've seen numerous people head out to a section where their are greens or shoot when there are green so they can get the next one. If you want an example of someone who uses this effectively (remember I was only new to it) try watching Blood or Raspi next time.

Secondly, its not only the fact that you run into greens. You also have to time your shot properly that as soon as you pick it up are you are aiming in the right direction and also shooting. This requires effort. Its not very simple to do it. If you try it a couple of times you'll realise it. Its actually quite hard to make sure you are aiming the right direction and time your shot correctly when you are backing away.

As for Epi's concern of phantom greens.
Let me answer this by a sentense.
The most random thing in a dueling area not greens or rocks or energy recharge by cheats, its LAG.

Unless you eliminate lag you can't eliminate total randomness in the match. The phantom greens are a result of lag. Its the same as in a base match when people run through other people's mines because the server shows as if the mine isn't there on their screen. So it is in a sense your fault you don't see the green due to your lag?
More than greens the more annonying thing that is far more random is the amount of hits you recieve due to lag.

Let me illustrate this one as well.

You rush this person and you get a direct hit on them. But alas! they don't die, they just turn around and shoot you in the face while you're stunned and continue. This happens way more frequently than fantom greens and is already a greater factor in the randomness in a duel match.

For all you people who don't know let me tell you another factor that involves randomness which now relates to rocks. If you noticed that if you scrape by a rock you induce server lag. For that instant you spike on the other person's computer which inturn can be used to your advantage to kill the opponent because he has no idea wher e you are. I've seen this used many times as well and illustrates how rocks do contribute to the randomness to the match. And in return of what epi said, they too should be removed because they induce randomness which can be eliminated.

But really, certain amount of randomness is always present and is impossible to get rid of completely. Phantom greens don't appear that often as epi suggests compared to other "random" factors. And I still think it would be unfair for people who do use the stratergy to get greens. (remember that I'm not very good at it and taking them away will even my skill level with the players who do use it effectively) An even more elaborate example than phantom greens are duds. This i've seen occur far more than phantom greens. The first thing that should be taken out even before greens are ever considered is duds. This by far, easily surpase the phantom greens.

In effect, it would only improve my situation as a dueler if greens are taken out. So I win either way whether they are taken out or not. But by each thing that is removed less and less variation is possible in different playing styles. For example, if rocks are removed for the effect of randomness then people who hide behind rocks (no matter how lame that is ) will not be able to do it anymore and will only take the state of dueling to a narrow playing style.

Again dude, anyone with a little bit of skill can shoot just before he picks up a green, and shoot immediatly after that again. These are very easy moves compared with nice rock-shots.
The only "skillful" move i know with full charges used to be shooting right on the moment when you pick up a green and turn ur ship a little while doing it. You shoot two bullets at a time which are much harder to dodge for the nme and which are great for when shooting at a group of ppl. I think it got removed with continuum.

And for the last time, no one is talking about that you can totally eliminate randomness in this game. But all we can do is try to REDUCE it. That's a step forward already. And yes there are things that are "more" random, like duds but since that's not really something we can solve it's irrelevant.

And your argument about the lag that is induced by rocks is of course correct. But you need some good lag to actually make this work. And I don't think it happens enough to take them away, because rocks also improve the game 'skill-level'. You can use rocks to get away from a group of people, and you can use em for nice shots.

-bram

[Azhran]

Originally posted by Dabram


2. Full charges gives you the chance to have a lucky and unfair chance to get a kill while you just shot already.


-bram

It works both ways, both you and your opponent can use it. And it makes it more interesting because it adds to strategy (ie instead of rushing like mad everytime someone misses you have to make sure there isn't a green nearby or if there is you have to be willing to take a risk)

[Epinephrine]

About the changes to the TWLJ map. The changes will be very minor. TWL probably isn't going to start for a few weeks, so you'll have plenty of time to bitch and moan The largest change will be a reduction in size of the spawn area.

Greens are completely random. There is no guarantee that greens are full charge. Making all greens into full charges is plain stupid because then league will turn into a "who can green faster" fest.

Because of lag (which we cannot control) greens will not appear in sync on different people's screens. This is a VERY common problem and no matter what you might think there is absolutely NO skill in picking up a green when you have no energy and then killing someone else who didn't even see that you picked up a green in the first place.

As well league is about a team-based effort. It is not supposed to be individual. If your team cannot protect you, do not expect random elements in the arena to make up for solid teamwork.

We have no control over duds. This is an inherent defect of SS/Cont and cannot be fixed by setting changes. All effort is being made in making this league as fair, unrandom and as skill-based as possible. The change just occured, give it a chance. This is the last time I'll address this issue until you give this thing a chance.

-Epi

[Dabram]

Originally posted by Force of Nature
1) Why not? I think its a legitimate comparision.

2)Wow, I just explained on how they are not the same. I don't understand why you still think they are the same. If you see someone run into greens back off otherwise you FUCKED UP because you didn't take into consideration it was a full charge. Actually it does take skill, since if it doesn't I'll like to see you do it consistantly and if it takes absolutely no skill everyone should be able to do it. But you don't see that happen?

3)What team duel games have you been playing? If someone is sitting behind a rock. It means he's waiting for the other team to shoot and then take a shot. Normally, his team is close by. Its quite effective, for example you don't get hit by so called "strays" by radar or even close shots, because you have the added protection of the rock. Reffering to your argument about escaping when you "FUCKED UP" is to try and get a green. It just increases possiblities you have to take into consideration.

4)Again I point out that it is less a factor of luck, but some people are too baised to see it. There are three voluntary steps you need to take to use a full charge effectively and hence can't be luck in that respect.

5)I agree their probably should be.

EDIT: hasty again.

1. The less randomness in a game, the better. How would you want to get rid of duds? Maybe there's a way, but I don't know how. I'd like to have no more duds in this game tho..

2. How hard is it to understand that I think it's LAME that after you FUCKUP and waste your fucking energy and get chased by an obviously SUPERIOR player you can just run away and get a LUCKY FULL CHARGE and get an EZ SHOT at him. It's totally lame because, here it comes: you FUCKED up and have no right to get that possibility of getting a full charge so you can fucking escape from the guy. There shouldnt be no way that you have to let some FUCKUP run away because you see he's heading for greens and might get a full charge. If you think this is fair you are obviously a player who lacks experience/skill.

3. I don't know what kind of duelingmatches you've been playing or how much experience you actually lack. But if a player is sitting behind a rock he's ezpie because if you would ever have played with a skilled team you would know that you dont attack from one line but from different ANGLES, this way if someone is sitting behind a rock he's ezpie.

4. Ok, then I'll just call it lame and it has nothing to do with skill.

-bram