Our LJ invitation

[pascone]

rule, you strongly imply that we weighted the opponent average and the actual number of points the squad had as the same. we didn't. it really wasn't that big a factor, however, the decrepancy between their points and opponent rating was huge. yes the system is ment to reflect opponent and adjust accordingly, however, when one squad has about the same points as the other but the opponents rating is that much higher, you can't seriously tell me that they really deserve the spot over the other squad

[Rule]

Pascone read what I said it had nothing to do with that. I implied nothing of that nature. Instead of trying to create more arguement's provide a solution.

Maybe instead of picking apart a portion of their opinion you can provide a valid explanation for the decision making process. #s of games should not even be mentioned as the requirement was met. I hope Average Opponent rating is not the basis for the decision, as it is flawed, and while the rules may state it, it has never been mentioned publicly. Sticking to your guns, is only worthwhile when you have a real argument, when you have very close decisions, should find a better way to resolve them - EG the traditional way of having the squads compete for the final spot.

A look at Plade's jding record:


Oct 09 3pm loss lifeban 0 - 2 -21
Oct 09 2pm loss Disoblige 0 - 2 -10
Oct 09 9am loss SagE 1 - 2 -16
Oct 09 7am loss SagE 0 - 2 -19
Oct 08 4pm loss Pandora 0 - 2 -10
Oct 08 2pm loss Style 1 - 2 -11
Oct 08 1pm loss Thunder 1 - 2 -17
Oct 08 11am loss Pandora 1 - 2 -13
Oct 07 8pm loss dicE 0 - 2 -8
Oct 07 8pm loss Hydra 0 - 2 -13
Oct 07 7pm win HeraCY 2 - 1 19
Oct 07 1pm win HeraCY 2 - 1 21
Oct 07 11am win MYM 2 - 1 31
Oct 07 9am loss Thunder 1 - 2 -15
Oct 07 9am loss dicE 0 - 2 -9
Oct 07 2am win Tough 2 - 1 12
Oct 06 1pm loss Pandora 0 - 2 -17
Oct 06 11am loss dicE 0 - 2 -8
Oct 06 10am loss dicE 0 - 2 -9
Oct 05 11am win SagE 2 - 1 30
Oct 04 4pm win Tough 2 - 0 15
Oct 04 4pm win lifeban 2 - 0 34
Oct 04 3pm loss dicE 1 - 2 -7
Oct 04 2pm win Paladen 2 - 1 24
Oct 04 1pm win lifeban 2 - 1 39
Oct 04 12pm loss dicE 1 - 2 -6
Oct 04 11am loss Pandora 0 - 2 -11
Oct 04 10am loss Pandora 0 - 2 -12
Oct 04 9am loss Pandora 1 - 2 -14
Oct 04 9am loss Disoblige 1 - 2 -10
Oct 03 2pm loss Disoblige 0 - 2 -11
Oct 03 1pm win Mambo 2 - 0 35
Oct 03 11am loss MYM 1 - 2 -17
Oct 03 10am win pUMa 2 - 0 12
Oct 03 9am win pUMa 2 - 0 13
Oct 02 4pm loss Thunder 0 - 2 -13
Oct 02 3pm loss MYM 1 - 2 -19
Oct 02 1pm win lifeban 2 - 1 37
Oct 02 12pm win Spastic 2 - 0 25
Oct 02 11am loss Mambo 1 - 2 -15
Oct 01 4pm loss Style 1 - 2 -11
Oct 01 1pm win lifeban 2 - 1 34
Oct 01 11am loss SagE 1 - 2 -16
Oct 01 11am loss SagE 0 - 2 -19
Oct 01 10am loss MYM 0 - 2 -19
Oct 01 9am loss Thunder 1 - 2 -15
Sep 30 5pm loss SagE 0 - 2 -24
Sep 29 2pm loss HeraCY 0 - 2 -28
Sep 29 1pm loss dicE 0 - 2 -12
Sep 29 9am win MYM 2 - 0 25
Sep 28 7am loss SagE 1 - 2 -26
Sep 27 2pm loss Style 0 - 2 -20
Sep 27 2pm loss Disoblige 0 - 2 -19
Sep 27 1pm win Style 2 - 0 33
Sep 27 1pm loss Disoblige 0 - 2 -19
Sep 27 10am loss Thunder 0 - 2 -26
Sep 27 10am win Disoblige 2 - 0 33
Sep 27 9am win Thunder 2 - 1 31
Sep 26 2pm loss Mambo 0 - 2 -27
Sep 26 1pm win Thunder 2 - 1 32
Sep 26 12pm loss Thunder 0 - 2 -20
Sep 26 11am loss Thunder 0 - 2 -24
Sep 26 9am win SagE 2 - 1 29
Sep 24 2pm loss Hydra 0 - 2 -9
Sep 24 1pm loss Thunder 0 - 2 -22
Sep 24 12pm win dicE 2 - 0 37
Sep 24 11am win Mambo 2 - 1 28
Sep 24 10am loss Thunder 0 - 2 -18
Sep 23 6pm loss dicE 0 - 2 -13
Sep 23 3pm win Pandora 2 - 0 33
Sep 23 2pm win Heist 2 - 0 21
Sep 23 12pm win SagE 2 - 1 38
Sep 23 11am win Pandora 2 - 0 41
Sep 23 10am win Still Shining 2 - 0 29
Sep 23 9am loss Mambo 0 - 2 -16
Sep 23 8am loss SagE 0 - 2 -12
Sep 23 7am loss SagE 1 - 2 -13
Sep 22 5pm loss Pandora 0 - 2 -9


Plade is active and playing lots right before TWL qualification , and continues to lose and lose and lose...And builds up a high average opponent rating a long the way. I don't think a squad should be rewarded for simply playing higher ranked opponents and getting beaten time after time. It is a flawed system when that is the outcome.

Average opponent rating is seriously flawed and should not be the basis for a decision like this.

Having these two squads compete for the final spot is a simple and fair solution. The better squad will move on.

[HateTheFake]

Molten, i wasnt being sarcastic.

I agree with rule, at the end right before twl cut off time, plade purposely played higher ranked teams, to achieve a higher rating, fistula however didnt decide to purposely lose to 1300 ranked squads just to achieve a higher rating, but however crappy this might be I see 2 flaws, TWL qualifications and Pascone.

[Weak]

I still think we should flip a coin

[sexy wooden spoon]

If i cheat in a pulic arena but have a high player rating or score or somthing, will that stop me from being banned?...

Whats that...No........, you mean you inforce only the rules you want?

Meh.

[Lame]

rule, you strongly imply that we weighted the opponent average and the actual number of points the squad had as the same. we didn't. it really wasn't that big a factor, however, the decrepancy between their points and opponent rating was huge. yes the system is ment to reflect opponent and adjust accordingly, however, when one squad has about the same points as the other but the opponents rating is that much higher, you can't seriously tell me that they really deserve the spot over the other squad

Sorry Pascone, you all (TWL ops) act like its such an easy case. I don't understand that. Fistula had enough points and enough games played. Yet they didnt qualify because Plade had a better average opponent rating and played more games. Looking at the average opponent rating is not bad in those cases you are not sure which squad would be allowed to go in. But what if a squad that has a decent average opponent rating, loses most games against those squads that give them a decent average opponent rating? Does that actually make the decision easier or harder? I'd say the decision would get harder, since quantity (making a higher average opponent rating) is not the same as quality in this case. I do believe that you said the average opponent rating will be an issue in cases where squads avoid playing hard squads to get points. You never said this was the case with Fistula.
Apart from that, Plade was reformed not so long ago, while Fistula showed stability. I fail to see how you can make such a decision and pretending the situation is so obvious? All I am saying is: this looks like it could go either way, so the best decision is arranging a game to decide.
We keep going in circles and yet you fail to convince me that you made a weighted decision.

Edit: I looked it up, it seems that you not only made a wrong decision, but you also broke your own rules. Did Fistula play weaker squads to get points? I didn't hear you say that. So why'd you look at the average opponent rating??

Pascone's post in the thread 'Season 11 news'
As for qualifying, as there have been many questions about it, the highest points on TWD ladders in each league will be considered. You need 15 games PER LEAGUE to be considered. Note, if there is a situation where squads are playing weaker squads to gain points and their average opponent rating reflects this, they may not be invited to TWL.

[pascone]

Sorry Pascone, you all (TWL ops) act like its such an easy case. I don't understand that. Fistula had enough points and enough games played. Yet they didnt qualify because Plade had a better average opponent rating and played more games. Looking at the average opponent rating is not bad in those cases you are not sure which squad would be allowed to go in. But what if a squad that has a decent average opponent rating, loses most games against those squads that give them a decent average opponent rating? Does that actually make the decision easier or harder? I'd say the decision would get harder, since quantity (making a higher average opponent rating) is not the same as quality in this case. I do believe that you said the average opponent rating will be an issue in cases where squads avoid playing hard squads to get points. You never said this was the case with Fistula.
Apart from that, Plade was reformed not so long ago, while Fistula showed stability. I fail to see how you can make such a decision and pretending the situation is so obvious? All I am saying is: this looks like it could go either way, so the best decision is arranging a game to decide.
We keep going in circles and yet you fail to convince me that you made a weighted decision.

Edit: I looked it up, it seems that you not only made a wrong decision, but you also broke your own rules. Did Fistula play weaker squads to get points? I didn't hear you say that. So why'd you look at the average opponent rating??

Pascone's post in the thread 'Season 11 news'
As for qualifying, as there have been many questions about it, the highest points on TWD ladders in each league will be considered. You need 15 games PER LEAGUE to be considered. Note, if there is a situation where squads are playing weaker squads to gain points and their average opponent rating reflects this, they may not be invited to TWL.

the fact that their opponent average is low says it for me. also, considering bikes post, they had 4 players on and didn't want to play. that isn't competitive. i don't care if it was a 'weak line'. that could happen in twl where your best players don't show up, so what would they do in that situation? not a risk we wanted to take. and again, the requirements aren't for making twl. they are for being CONSIDERED for making twl. why is this such a major issue?

as for your hypotheticals, they didn't happen so i don't care enough to speculate on situations that didn't occur. it's pretty much common sense when a squad has 17 less points but over 100 more opponent average which squad is more deserving. if that is not clear to you, then there is nothing more i can contribute to this.

[pascone]

If i cheat in a pulic arena but have a high player rating or score or somthing, will that stop me from being banned?...

Whats that...No........, you mean you inforce only the rules you want?

Meh.

this doesn't even make any sense

[Fork]

If i cheat in a public arena but have a high player rating or score or something, will that stop me from being banned?...

Whats that...No........, you mean you inforce only the rules you want?

Meh.

Makes sense to me :P

[sexy wooden spoon]

this doesn't even make any sense

O dear, ok let me dumb down my point:

1. TW has rules.
2. Even if i play all day everday and have lots of points and stuff, i am still not above the rules.
3. Fistula according to the rules were in LJ.
4. You put someone else in the league except Fistula so you broke the rules.

Therefore its like changing the rules for some1 just becuase they play alot or you prefer them - which i am sure you wouldnt do as a Mod in an arena.


There is a quick and very boring summary of my sarcastic post.

[pascone]

O dear, ok let me dumb down my point:

1. TW has rules.
2. Even if i play all day everday and have lots of points and stuff, i am still not above the rules.
3. Fistula according to the rules were in LJ.
4. You put someone else in the league except Fistula so you broke the rules.

Therefore its like changing the rules for some1 just becuase they play alot or you prefer them - which i am sure you wouldnt do as a Mod in an arena.


There is a quick and very boring summary of my sarcastic post.

have you ever actually read the rules

[MetalKid]

Let's go over acouple things,


If you goto twl.trenchwars.org and read the rules section you see this:

2.02
In order for a Trench Wars Division (www.twdivisions.org) squad to qualify for TWL consideration, that squad must meet all Trench Wars Leagues requirements as noted in Section V. Twelve squads will be chosen with requirements based on both TWD standings, including but not limited to, both Rating and Average Opponent Rating. In addition, the squad must have played a minimum of 15 matches in the respective division (Dueling, Javelins, & Basing) they are attempting to qualify for.

as it says including but not limited to both rating and average opponent rating. Your argument that you had a better Average opponent rating against other squads you lacked the rating part by alot.. I think this was a close decision to be honest on both sides. The fact that you only played 17 games doesnt' really even factor into the decision except that it is EVEN easier to get your AVERAGE OPPONENT RATING higher.

The only reason Fistula played that low number was because you only required 15 games. Why should we be forced to go above and beyond. 17 games averages a game every other day, so whats the big deal here?

You're average rating should only change if you win vs a squad. That way, you know the "firepower" of a squad. plade could have easily played a lot of top squads and lost every one, got their average rating up, and then played a lot lower squads that barely lowered their average rating but upped their rating a lot. How is that fair to everyone else? This same abuse happened in elim where someone got their rating very high and then killed that person to make their average rating go way up to get high ranking. They ultimately had to change the formula to prevent this kind of abuse.

[MetalKid]

the fact that their opponent average is low says it for me. also, considering bikes post, they had 4 players on and didn't want to play. that isn't competitive. i don't care if it was a 'weak line'. that could happen in twl where your best players don't show up, so what would they do in that situation? not a risk we wanted to take. and again, the requirements aren't for making twl. they are for being CONSIDERED for making twl. why is this such a major issue?

as for your hypotheticals, they didn't happen so i don't care enough to speculate on situations that didn't occur. it's pretty much common sense when a squad has 17 less points but over 100 more opponent average which squad is more deserving. if that is not clear to you, then there is nothing more i can contribute to this.

Where does it say in the rules that you cannot refuse to play matches? No where, that's where!


See above post for response to average rating.

[PjOtTeR]

Why do you guys from Fistula have to be such whining pussies... While I think neither of you deserves to be in TWL, I still don't want Fistula in.

I could be all sarcastic and be like Fistula too good 'n stuff, but for this once I will be serious..

You guys played 17 jd matches in all those weeks of qualifying... You obviously didn't care enough to get enough points to be sure of making twlj...
Since you don't care enough now, you probably won't care enough during season... You just see this as your 2nd league and probably only play it since 3 or 4 people like to play javs and are a few of your better wb's and prefer a 2 league squad...
Plade on the other hand has put a lot of effort into getting into TWLJ cause they like that league the most out of all leagues... Just cause they momentarily lack the skill to beat the average line of one of the better teams in lj didn't stop them from playing those constantly, to get better...

Why on earth's name would a Staff person, that is supposed to run the Zone and TWL properly, put in Fistula over Plade?
I do understand however that we should follow rules, eventhough a lot of these rules are just plain retarded... Ofcourse a normall person would put Plade in TWLJ over Fistula... this however is not in the rules, because by the rules Fistula would be in... that's why I say "screw these rules" and let the better play... just like all teams should be picked for "eliteness" and not for having some high rating somewhere on some site about some division shit no one really gives a fuck about....

To add on to my ramble a lil thing so Fistula can bite the soar apple!!..:
I remember one rule and it basicly said: "ALL TWL-OP DECISIONS ARE FINAL"

So screw you Fistula..

[Dark Shadow]

This shouldn't have even become an issue. If the leaders of twl would have stuck to the rules and not meddled with the ladder just to please their own desires of who they deem worthy then there would have never been a word out of plade who already knew they hadn't qualified. I don't blame plade, but I also woudn't be real proud of my squad getting into lj this way if I was them.

But don't forget TWL staff at christmas time plade.

Even thou none of the ppl running this game get paid and r doing it out of the "goodness of their heart" and on their own time. I think the mods in this zone specifically should be re-evaluvated. Way too many things r being done to those who are "friends" with mods over the other ppl who are considered nobodies. So with that said, fuck rudy, fuck kim, fuck pascone. Let fistula in lj and u should of let quicksand in ld. Oh well nothing can be done.

Peace

P.S. fuck witness