TAPS - Trench Wars Association of Players and Staff

[Kahlan]

Yeah, sounds all well and good except for 2 major problems. Not enough people would care to even CREATE the TAPS system, nonetheless use it. Second problem: What major decisions have been made that need to be presented to a council in the past 2 months? I don't think that staff makes enough controversial decisions for the TAPS system to be necessary.

[Kim]

Kahlan, this is their direction answer to the recent "controversial" TWL decision, nothing to do with anything else we've done.

[Zingy]

Kahlan, this is their direction answer to the recent "controversial" TWL decision, nothing to do with anything else we've done.

Define "their" - are we on a different side than you just because you are dean of staff? I have no advantage in making this post since I was not personally affected by the recent "controversial" decision. I'm sure this isn't the first time the idea of peer review ("player oversight") has been brought up.

I will admit (happily) that the occurrence of "controversial" decisions (whether TWL-related or not) are rather rare, but if the overall community gets involved with at least a part of the decision making process, it will help prevent any future "controversial decisions" and make sure that the zone is being run in the way the population at large would want it to (this is a game, so there is no reason why things should not be done in accordance with that). If anything, a political facet to TW would simply be an extension to the game (as it is, SS is already seen more as a "chat client" with a game on the side).

Staff members are still part of this community, they're only given extra responsibilities and tasks.

This is true, however the fact that the general public has no part in choosing the staff members that represent them means that it opens up the possibility of that decisions may be made in which the entire public does not agrees with.

I am not saying the current staff system needs to be changed (in fact my original post had nothing to do with that), I just wanted to respond to the statement you made and clarify the alternate view.

[Kolar]

This is true, however the fact that the general public has no part in choosing the staff members that represent them means that it opens up the possibility of that decisions may be made in which the entire public does not agrees with.

That has always been the case. While staff does not represent the community we are trusted with the zone's management and represent by proxy the zone's owners. A representative council might not be the best solution but any kind of system that puts staff or the zone in the hands of the general population is a bad idea. If this were to be made it would only work in an advisory capacity. That said we are open to ideas, comments and criticisms. My position is to take care of such issues directly or by email (complaints@trenchwars.org). I would suggest if you have a problem appeal to me and the other SMods directly.

[Zingy]

...any kind of system that puts staff or the zone in the hands of the general population is a bad idea.

Well, this is a game so why not?

If most civilized countries are willing to put control of the country in the hands of the "general population" (look at the house of representatives in the US, or house of commons in Britain) then why shouldn't the same apply here?

To say that staff rules "by proxy" is similar to the old world monarchy where the king would arbitrarily assign peerage (noble ranks like duke, earl, etc.) for people to govern parts of the kingdom under the king's name.

Anyways, as I said before, the original post did not disagree with the staff system, so I think discussing this is getting off topic. My original post made it clear that staff would STILL have the sole responsibility in running the zone's day-to-day operations and TAPS would only be used in conflicts.

That said we are open to ideas, comments and criticisms. My position is to take care of such issues directly or by email (complaints@trenchwars.org). I would suggest if you have a problem appeal to me and the other SMods directly.

Let's be realistic Kolar, a few people sending emails to an email address will do nothing to change a situation - it is easy to dismiss any "ideas, comments, or criticisms" that come up. Let's take the present situation as an example: lets pretend 10 people emailed that address and complained - will it have changed anything? I doubt it.

This is the whole reason why "Labor Unions" started springing up in the 1900's - power in numbers showing a majority view. Prior to labor unions employers could have dismissed what individual employees argued about (ie. firing anyone who complained or just ignoring them); however, the coming of organized labor unions made it no longer possible for employers to dismiss the complaints that were brought forward by the employees.

[Kolar]

Well, this is a game so why not?

If most civilized countries are willing to put control of the country in the hands of the "general population" (look at the house of representatives in the US, or house of commons in Britain) then why shouldn't the same apply here?

Democracy might work in real life but kids on here are not mature enough for it to work. Again it probably won't be use and even then it won't have power to do anything but advise. Democracy on a game like this is a popularity contests and just because someone might be popular and well liked doesn't mean they're actually fit to do a job in this zone.

Let's be realistic Kolar, a few people sending emails to an email address will do nothing to change a situation - it is easy to dismiss any "ideas, comments, or criticisms" that come up. Let's take the present situation as an example: lets pretend 10 people emailed that address and complained - will it have changed anything? I doubt it.

I take every complaint directly or by email seriously. While other Super Moderators might be busy with things this is my primary job in the zone, to make sure conflicts between players are resolved. I think that's more preferable then appealing to a group of players who may or may not have your interests or the zone's in mind.

[HateTheFake]

Kolar is prolly the most upset, by doing TAPS we no longer need him for public relations :P i say continue on

[Dameon Angell]

Well, I see you put a lot of time and thought into this idea, and I appreciate it, really. But, if we were to do something like this, I don't think it has to be as intricate and involved as say a council of 5-7 people (3,4 players, 2,3 staff) who just vote on things.

Our player base isn't big enough to support that much into it. Good idea for next season, perhaps.

[Weaver]

Zingy, aside from the recent TWL fiasco, what other events/decisions in the recent past do you think TAPS could have played an important role in?

[Cops]

Trench Wars is not a democracy, and I see no point in a council side stepping Staff's decisions. For better or worse you play the game and accept the decisions that are made.

[Zingy]

Zingy, aside from the recent TWL fiasco, what other events/decisions in the recent past do you think TAPS could have played an important role in?

Weaver, I understand the point you are trying to make; I entirely agree that there have only been rare instances of significant conflict in the recent past and it may be questionable whether the effort of implementing something like TAPS would be worth it if it is only going to be necessary once in a blue moon.

This is a question that can only be answered if we analyze what role something like TAPS could fill, for example: would TAPS only be used for huge major conflicts, or could it also be used to help in other tasks such as involving the community in refining TWL rules or making other decisions. Without knowing the full extent of power that would be given to TAPS it is difficult to determine if its implementation would be worth its effort.

Trench Wars is not a democracy, and I see no point in a council side stepping Staff's decisions. For better or worse you play the game and accept the decisions that are made.

According to that line of thought, just because something is not currently a democracy, that means it should never change into a democracy. I guess you should tell that to all the socialist european countries which switched to a democratic system -- in doing so, you should remind them that switching to a democracy was a foolish move.

[Cops]

Video Games


Real Life


Do you notice how I separated those words? Good, because there's a huge difference between the two.

I'm a huge promoter of democracy and even I know this is a stupid idea plus it will never work. Don't attack my views on democracy because I think this is a terrible idea, my views on democracy and my views on a Trench Wars Democratic council are completely unrelated.

Coming from someone who was part of staff and has a brother who looks after Public Relations I see no need for there to be an elected representatives for the zone, considering staff's job is for the betterment of the Trench Wars populous and they have a hierarchy of power that makes sure things are run properly. If you want to claim that the person at the top is corrupt (Pure_Luck) then that's another issue, which in my opinion is a null issue considering he's done a decent job running the zone. We have a good group of Smods who investigate all claims of abuse regardless if it's a <ZH>, <ER>, Moderator or even an Smod.

[Zingy]

Video Games


Real Life


Do you notice how I separated those words? Good, because there's a huge difference between the two.

Thanks for clarifying that, I could have never figured out that there was a difference between Video Games and Real Life. You should write a book.

If you want to claim that the person at the top is corrupt...

Did I say that anyone is corrupt? No.

The whole point of TAPS was to involve the community more. If you disagree with that, that's fine by me. Things which encourage increased community involvement tend to result in a healthier community. TW asks players to post fliers and advertise the zone, but at the same time how can it not be open to the idea of letting willing (elected by the public) people participate in how decisions are made?

Like I said before, this recent TWL "fiasco" has not affected me so I am not approaching this idea with bias of any sort. In fact, in my original post I specifically said that this is only an initial idea, and that it would need to be significantly refined if it was to ever be implemented.

[Kim]

Normally TWL-Ops would discuss things such as conference setting and other TWL adjustments like spider limit with the caps of all major squads prior to having them implimented. This is essentially the player's vote. We don't need players who aren't participating TWL squads to put in their votes. The captains represent the squad, and the right decision will be made. I am not sure whether or not this was the approach taken by pascone on this particular decision, only he would know.

[Depre]

tap tap tap that asss