Staff killing our bds over point feeding? So whats this then?

[Noah]

Mela, you picked a few parts of my post and then you ignored the rest.

This is something that is illegal that is impossible to prove. The only way this can be proven is if one of the caps admits it, and nobody will ever admit to breaking a rule when they can just deny it. You guys would have said exactly the same if the game was a feeder game or not, and that would be to deny it. That's why everything both squads are saying is getting disregarded. Also the reason why this decision was made quickly was because this offense couldn't have been clearer. I can't even imagine a setting that would make a squad look more guilty of this than what happened in your bd.

Plob will never apologize to you for doing the right thing in that situation, and I won't either. If you want a TWLB invitation then win TWD cup.

[Capital Knockers]

Mela, you picked a few parts of my post and then you ignored the rest.

This is something that is illegal that is impossible to prove. The only way this can be proven is if one of the caps admits it, and nobody will ever admit to breaking a rule when they can just deny it. You guys would have said exactly the same if the game was a feeder game or not, and that would be to deny it. That's why everything both squads are saying is getting disregarded. Also the reason why this decision was made quickly was because this offense couldn't have been clearer. I can't even imagine a setting that would make a squad look more guilty of this than what happened in your bd.

Plob will never apologize to you for doing the right thing in that situation, and I won't either. If you want a TWLB invitation then win TWD cup.

An apology isn't the problem. From what I see, you've got people on both squads in this very topic saying the same thing. Of course if you take what I said and ban people who accepted the matches, that captain won't come forward. I highly doubt that everything everyone has said before now is lying. I know these guys, they wouldn't fuck around like that, or play that way. They'd rather lose fair, than cheat and feed. Stop being so happy that you got someone in trouble and take another look at the situation. You obviously just jumped in all this, made assumptions, and now you'll do whatever it takes to prevent from admitting you were wrong, or perhaps rash in your actions. Besides, does this really even affect you or Disoblige in TWL? I'm really not sure, thats why I'm asking, knocking Sage up, would it knock diso out or something? Or are you just trying to keep them in trouble because you're the person that put them there?

[Noah]

I don't get it. You gave punishments to squads, that aren't going to have any real affect on them - when they were ACTUALLY feeding. Yet Sage gets fucked over by Laser (which has members fully admitting they weren't feeding, they just left for a jd) and you're busting Sage? Thats a real load of bs right there Mirr, you've been doing an awesome job, please continue and put this situation right. Sage willingly accepted the bd, desperately looking to qualify, and they got one. Laser found a jd for the same reason and peaced. Why in the world would Laser even play any of the bd if they were just feeding? Why would they play the first few minutes and peace? If they were trying to HIDE the fact that they were feeding they would of played it out longer. It's complete common sense and logic - and you've got both squads on the same page and in complete agreement. Sage should qualify, plob is on my squad and an awesome dude, but even I agree he had no right to kill a game and void it just because someone on Diso shouts ' YO their cheating! '

For all we know it could have been arranged so that Laser started with the bd, and after the game started they could have challenged a squad they knew were desperate for a jd. Maybe they left the game just to create the argument that you are using here, that if they were feeding they would play the entire game out. Everyone can come with theories that shows this and that, but nobody will know, and it's because of that staff just has to go with what it looks like right then and there. Also do you honestly think that plob voided the game JUST because I shouted "YO their cheating"? I called the game into staff's attention and they made their own decision. I don't have a magic command that make staff obey all my ?help and ?cheater requests.

This can easily be avoided in the future by voiding ALL games _like this_ within 12 or 24 hours from the TWL cutoff out of principle. Nobody wants a squad to get into TWL because some shit squad couldn't follow through on their TWD game anyway.

[Noah]

An apology isn't the problem. From what I see, you've got people on both squads in this very topic saying the same thing. Of course if you take what I said and ban people who accepted the matches, that captain won't come forward. I highly doubt that everything everyone has said before now is lying. I know these guys, they wouldn't fuck around like that, or play that way. They'd rather lose fair, than cheat and feed. Stop being so happy that you got someone in trouble and take another look at the situation. You obviously just jumped in all this, made assumptions, and now you'll do whatever it takes to prevent from admitting you were wrong, or perhaps rash in your actions. Besides, does this really even affect you or Disoblige in TWL? I'm really not sure, thats why I'm asking, knocking Sage up, would it knock diso out or something? Or are you just trying to keep them in trouble because you're the person that put them there?

I'm going to post this for the third and final time now: No squads will ever admit to doing this, because there is no way to prove this. This will always be denied by both squad in cases like this, regardless if it was feeding or not, so that is why we can't take their word for it. Both squads will take a huge hit to their credibility if something like this got confirmed, adding bans to this wouldn't change anything, they still have a good reason to deny everything.

I'm not a person that logs on one day and thinks "HAY I R GOING TO MAEK PROBLEMS FOR *rolling a dice* THOSE GUISE". If you want to believe that about me then fine, think whatever you want, I don't give a shit. I believe I did the right thing still, because everyone that isn't involved with either of the squads agrees with it, including staff.

Even if there were a way to prove that this wasn't an intentional feeder game that doesn't change things. The game turned into a feeder game anyway, and that is no way to qualify for a TWL. Like I said in an earlier post, void all games that ends up like this X hours before the cutoff out or principle.

[Capital Knockers]

For all we know it could have been arranged so that Laser started with the bd, and after the game started they could have challenged a squad they knew were desperate for a jd. Maybe they left the game just to create the argument that you are using here, that if they were feeding they would play the entire game out. Everyone can come with theories that shows this and that, but nobody will know, and it's because of that staff just has to go with what it looks like right then and there. Also do you honestly think that plob voided the game JUST because I shouted "YO their cheating"? I called the game into staff's attention and they made their own decision. I don't have a magic command that make staff obey all my ?help and ?cheater requests.

This can easily be avoided in the future by voiding ALL games within 12 or 24 hours from the TWL cutoff out of principle. Nobody wants a squad to get into TWL because some shit squad couldn't follow through on their TWD game anyway.

What you are suggesting makes no sense. You're completely speculating any possible situation that they could of mischieviously cheated and gotten the points. Which is total bull. As I said, I can speak for the people on Sage - especially guys like Havu who would never let that sort of shit go down. What you yourself are saying is only further proving my point - you CANT prove that they were feeding, you really can't. With dicE/HEAVY, you can, they never even played. But you just can't here - so you're telling me that we automatically punish them without concrete evidence just because it's a sticky situation? That it's left entirely up to whichever mod or staff member is online to make a random situational decision on the fly? Of course plob would void it, it's a hell of alot easier to make that call and end the situation then and there. This shouldn't be about whats easy, it should be doing whats right.

In addition, no game should be taken into account 12-24 hours before cutoff? Thats retarded, all you're doing is moving the cutoff, it's not changing or fixing any actually problems. What should be done, is it should of been looked at, investigated, before making rash and quick decisions without all the information. From what you are telling me, and what I see here, plob#f was the only person representing staff here. Meaning, technically, while you don't have the magic to FORCE him to listen to you, it's what happend. A vet made a call, he came, and how long inbetween time before he shut things down?

This is wrong, plain and simple. As I said, I really normally wouldn't give two shits - and no offense, but when it comes to Laser I don't. They're the ones at fault here, and that can be proven easily. They took the game, and they left. They should of finished it before jding, or not taken it if they didn't have the time to do both. Sage is innocent, and you're punishing them based completely on speculation. Whereas their arguement has actual merit, aka, people from BOTH squads posting here in this topic, stating that Laser fucked off for a jd. You saying that doesn't matter is bull, there is more actual merit to Sage's side of this then Staff or Lasers. Once again, the people on Sage wouldn't do that - anyone who actually has played with these guys can back me up on that.

[Capital Knockers]

You seem like a bitter guy from sage, so I'm going to post something here.

I did the ?cheater call that made sure that your feeding was busted. Felt pretty good too!

You like the fact you got someone in trouble. You just don't want to be wrong.

There is no reasonable way to prove that something illegal was actually happening here, but still this is something that needs staff attention when it happens. The only thing that can be used to make a decision like this is the context of what is happening, and it couldn't have been clearer than this. I'll never know if you guys are telling the truth or not, there is no proof either way. I can't really think of a setting someone from staff could have a more valid reason to kill a game for this reason. You just needed a few points to get into TWLB, and out of the blue another squad with 1000 points decides to throw you a game.

So you're punishing them, as I said, based completely on speculation? Bull-fucking shit buddy - you need evidence before you 'bust' someone. We don't live in Iraq here. Prove they did it, or fuck off. It's not out of the blue that someone with 1000 BD points decided to play them, they obviously wanted a JD after - then found someone easier than Sage to beat and fucked off. In FACT, if they WERE feeding, they wouldn't of left the BD, they would of waited and Sage would of given them more JD points than someone else ANYWAYS.

Whether or not the game was purposely fed or accidentally fed, the point remains that TWL qualifications were only a few hrs away from ending, and if this game had remained, it would give an unfair advantage. Dice and HEAVY told me nearly the same kind of story and how it wasnt purposeful. I also told them the same thing when I had their games voided.

This isn't solving the problem. dicE and HEAVY are filled with questionable players and anyone here with a brain knows it. The punishments you gave them were next to useless and completely wrong if you actually meant to do anything to either squad. They just shook them off, dicE didn't even care about LD before all this. Give a proper, and relatable punishment to these squads before you hold another one out of LB completely for something that wasn't in their control.

Even if they weren't simply "throwing" the game for you, having all their players leave and giving you a free forfeit win because they don't care enough is still feeding.

No, it's not. Feeding is when both squads are KNOWINGLY giving away and recieving points. You're just plain wrong. What happend, was Laser completely fucked Sage over here, and nobody gives two shits, they just want an easy answer to a tough question.

Like Salubrious mentioned, I'd be angrier about not securing my place on the ladder sooner rather than about not getting a free win in order to qualify.

Different people have different schedules and lives. Using this is merely an excuse plain and simple. They should be able to get the point whenever it works for them, and holding this against them is just to make things easier for you guys. It has nothing of merit.

Sigh I wish we hadn't had to leave that game... we were snatching any chance we could get to JD at the time, paradise (I think?) only accepted the BD because we were convinced nobody was going to play us.

We hadn't intended to feed, but that is how it turned out.

A member of Laser backing up exactly what Sage is saying. It wasn't feeding dude, you fucked them.

Even if there were a way to prove that this wasn't an intentional feeder game that doesn't change things. The game turned into a feeder game anyway, and that is no way to qualify for a TWL. Like I said in an earlier post, void all games that ends up like this X hours before the cutoff out or principle.

As I stated before, this only effectively changes the cutoff date, it doesn't fix the problem. edit - voiding all forfeits doesn't work either. maybe if there was a rule to do this already implemented sure, but now their isnt. It still isnt fair, squad A start a game with squad B, runs the time as long as they can, then forfeits so that squad doesnt have the time to gain pts before deadline?

[Noah]

What you are suggesting makes no sense. You're completely speculating any possible situation that they could of mischieviously cheated and gotten the points. Which is total bull. As I said, I can speak for the people on Sage - especially guys like Havu who would never let that sort of shit go down. What you yourself are saying is only further proving my point - you CANT prove that they were feeding, you really can't. With dicE/HEAVY, you can, they never even played. But you just can't here - so you're telling me that we automatically punish them without concrete evidence just because it's a sticky situation? That it's left entirely up to whichever mod or staff member is online to make a random situational decision on the fly? Of course plob would void it, it's a hell of alot easier to make that call and end the situation then and there. This shouldn't be about whats easy, it should be doing whats right.

In addition, no game should be taken into account 12-24 hours before cutoff? Thats retarded, all you're doing is moving the cutoff, it's not changing or fixing any actually problems. What should be done, is it should of been looked at, investigated, before making rash and quick decisions without all the information. From what you are telling me, and what I see here, plob#f was the only person representing staff here. Meaning, technically, while you don't have the magic to FORCE him to listen to you, it's what happend. A vet made a call, he came, and how long inbetween time before he shut things down?

This is wrong, plain and simple. As I said, I really normally wouldn't give two shits - and no offense, but when it comes to Laser I don't. They're the ones at fault here, and that can be proven easily. They took the game, and they left. They should of finished it before jding, or not taken it if they didn't have the time to do both. Sage is innocent, and you're punishing them based completely on speculation. Whereas their arguement has actual merit, aka, people from BOTH squads posting here in this topic, stating that Laser fucked off for a jd. You saying that doesn't matter is bull, there is more actual merit to Sage's side of this then Staff or Lasers. Once again, the people on Sage wouldn't do that - anyone who actually has played with these guys can back me up on that.

My point with those theories was that since there can't be any solid proof of this, is that everyone can always come up with a theory that favors their point of view. The only way these won't be theories would be for staffers to get access to logs on the caps computers where both squads agrees on the feeding.

I forgot to add that one part to my previous post, void all games that ends up with forfeits and shit like this. I said this in another post too, if you had read my posts you'd understand that it was just a stupid mistake I did in creating the post.

You're making it sound like I was the only person in the arena and that plob was the only staffer in the arena. Crazi was also there, along with tons of other spectators, and EVERYONE thought the same.

I respect that you stand up for your friends Capital Knockers, but from here on now we're both are just going to repeat ourselves. I've said mine, and I'm sticking to it. I'm done with this now.

[Capital Knockers]

My point with those theories was that since there can't be any solid proof of this, is that everyone can always come up with a theory that favors their point of view. The only way these won't be theories would be for staffers to get access to logs on the caps computers where both squads agrees on the feeding.

I forgot to add that one part to my previous post, void all games that ends up with forfeits and shit like this. I said this in another post too, if you had read my posts you'd understand that it was just a stupid mistake I did in creating the post.

You're making it sound like I was the only person in the arena and that plob was the only staffer in the arena. Crazi was also there, along with tons of other spectators, and EVERYONE thought the same.

I respect that you stand up for your friends Capital Knockers, but from here on now we're both are just going to repeat ourselves. I've said mine, and I'm sticking to it. I'm done with this now.

I've got nothing personal with you, and I didn't know other people were there, but it doesn't make the situation right. You keep saying yourself, there is no proof. You can't do shit then, staff can't do shit, no one can. If they do, they're basically just being dictators. Which yeah, we know is basically what staff is anyways - but that doesn't mean Im going to shut the fuck up. Not when I see something so god damn fucking obviously and blatantly wrong as this. Then to see everyone else just jumping on the easier course of action? Screw that noise. Point is by all your own admissions, you have absolutely no evidence to support the fact that the game was a feed. From everything I can see, one squad got fucked by another, and it's simply easier to let them be fucked rather than do anything about it so thats what everyone is doing - taking the easy way out. Until someone does something about this, yeah, I will keep arguing. You and anyone else that tries to defend such acts of laziness and unfair, unwarranted, and uncalled for procedure.

Only a few ways to shut me up when I get boiled like this. Either find some proof to what you're all saying, and beat me in a logical arguement. I have no problem admitting Im wrong when presented with fact. Ban me from the forums and/or game. Furthering my point of people taking the easy and lazy way out. Or I guess you guys could put up with me for a week, and if Sage wins TWDBC I'd shut up as there would be no point. If they don't win, I'll continue - because it's bullshit. There is no reasonable explaination to the course of action being followed here other than it would be too messy to go back on it now. You can't fucking ignore something like this just because it's messy - deal with it properly. Can't you guys look up which assistants on Laser accepted the match? Which people left the arena or game first? Does anyone on Staff have any sort of logs or access to information that could help either side of this debate?

ah yes, the fourth way to shut me up I suppose, would be to do the right thing. The next squad out, should be taking on BasingCrew next week - not Sage.

[Capital Knockers]

Whether or not the game was purposely fed or accidentally fed, the point remains that TWL qualifications were only a few hrs away from ending, and if this game had remained, it would give an unfair advantage. Dice and HEAVY told me nearly the same kind of story and how it wasnt purposeful. I also told them the same thing when I had their games voided.

I logged on about 10 seconds before I went into your arena and made the call. We got a squadmessage that something was going on in twbd, and that we needed to take a look at it. When I went in there were already plenty of speccers saying that this was just too obviously feeding. I made staff aware of what was going on, and they quickly made the same assumption (and the right one) as the rest of us. There weren't really anything the caps of either squad could have said that would change the situation, and that's probably why plob just killed the game. The caps of both team would have denied this even if it was intentional feeding or not, and plob would have gotten the same answers anyway from talking to you: "No nothing illegal is going on here".

There is no reasonable way to prove that something illegal was actually happening here, but still this is something that needs staff attention when it happens. The only thing that can be used to make a decision like this is the context of what is happening, and it couldn't have been clearer than this. I'll never know if you guys are telling the truth or not, there is no proof either way. I can't really think of a setting someone from staff could have a more valid reason to kill a game for this reason. You just needed a few points to get into TWLB, and out of the blue another squad with 1000 points decides to throw you a game.

I'm dead sure, if you were being held out of LB by pure speculation/assumption with NO PROOF, you'd be arguing your lungs out as would many of your squadmates. It's wrong, plain and simple. Find a way to prove what you're saying, or fix the mistake. In fact, you yourself are saying that my assumptions and reasoning can't be used to backup or defend Sage - but by your own fucking words - it makes it okay to condemn them? God damnit, we are from North America/Civil Countries here right everyone? We do live in a society where you have a trial or something first right? Not just a quite talk in spec chat - and you still haven't answered, that I know of, but would your squad or a squad you like have to be the squad going to the Cup instead of making it in? I'm pretty sure that could explain why you, and the others that gave you a squadmessage would all argue in favour of voiding the game yes?

Here you go, captain DaRuler of Laser himself Noah.

Wow, he killed that game? We needed to qualify for TWD Cup so we had to jd and forfeit... No way that game should've been killed, that was my squad's fault. It was obvious we weren't throwing it for you... that's dick

Now what doesn't matter here is whether or not Laser argues what they did was illegal or not. What matter, is it's captain is admitting they knowingly left for another game. The punishment should fall here, not on Sage. They were completely willing to play out their BD - what logical, rational, or fair reasoning could you give otherwise to backup what you're doing. There was absolutely nothing they could of done to prevent Laser from doing what they did. Show me some proof, any kind of proof! They didn't go throw a jd in their favour afterwards. They did NOTHING wrong, and you have no way to prove they did. You're just doing what's easier for you guys, and if Sage doesn't make LB it's because you guys were lazy.

Squads deciding to leave a match for another is part of the game. So is people with annoying lag thats just under the limit. Why not start busting those guys based on speculation and assumptions before an entire squad of good guys? There is no unfair advantage here Mirr, the only unfair thing happening is Sage might get fucked out of TWL because of this mess. Show me something in the rules that says a game thats forfeited isn't valid? It is. You'd have to take out everyone else's games that had the same result if you wanted to justify this. They did nothing wrong, and until you can prove they did, you're making a mistake that I truly hope you correct, as you've been a pretty damn good TWL person so far. You've responded, and looked for public opinion everywhere you could, and put alot of time into making this a good season. Please do what's right.

[Noah]

There is one last thing I want to add:

This is the only rule I accept that staff doesn't need proof to enforce. If staff doesn't strike down on incidents like this it sends a signal that it's ok to fuck up TWD with feeding. Everyone could just say "You need proof", and then they could fuck up the TWD ladders untill staff broke into their homes to check their computers for logs. Because it's impossible to prove someone breaking this rule doesn't mean that this should never be enforced. The consequences of the opposite would be much worse.

Do you think that TW should turn a blind eye to TWD feeding in the future because it's impossible to prove anything, Knockers?

[Spikester]

I'd like to see MirrorriM or some other staffmember who can make a decision out of this wake up and reply. I'm curious to see where this is going but knowing staff in situations like these, nothing will change.

[Capital Knockers]

There is one last thing I want to add:

This is the only rule I accept that staff doesn't need proof to enforce. If staff doesn't strike down on incidents like this it sends a signal that it's ok to fuck up TWD with feeding. Everyone could just say "You need proof", and then they could fuck up the TWD ladders untill staff broke into their homes to check their computers for logs. Because it's impossible to prove someone breaking this rule doesn't mean that this should never be enforced. The consequences of the opposite would be much worse.

Do you think that TW should turn a blind eye to TWD feeding in the future because it's impossible to prove anything, Knockers?

Not at all Noah. I think they should implement the proper procedures, preventions, and methods to stop this. Rather than punishing completely innocent people. Anyone could take what you're saying and twist it. How many people would love to see BrokenFist or Mega Newbie, or any wb like that outta LD because their lag is obviously a factor. I'd love staff to make their own call on those situations. Difference is, there is nothing in place saying that staff has that authority. It just happend, and people are going along with it because it would be messy to fix. I don't think TW should turn a blind eye to anything. They should keep both eyes on as much as they can, as often as they can spare them because thats what being staff entails. If they can't do that, can't be impartial and follow their own structure and set of rules than they shouldn't be staff.

Once again, you haven't told me. Was it your squad that would have to go play BasingCrew in the Cup? I doubt Rape would bother arguing that they have a shot first, especially if you take a look at their roster, and the beating Sage already delivered to them. Was it a squad that maybe you favor over Sage? How about the people in the arena? Maybe more of them would rather see Sage in the Cup than whoever else would be put there? This should be pretty simple, as I said, Rape would be stupid to accept a match in the Cup again, it's a matter of BasingCrew taking on the proper squad. It's a matter of doing the right thing. Again, if you were the one being totally blatantly fucked here, I think you'd change your mind on what you just said.

In addition, you didn't answer any of my points. What about Laser? Why do they walk away scott free when they're the cause of this? Admittedly the cause of this. This whole fiasco is bullshit, stop smearing yourselves in it to try and cover that up. You guys made a mistake, plob made a judgement call, and well I like the dude, and understand he made it under pressure to have the teams picked then and not later - it was wrong. Fix the god damn mistake, all you're doing is opening the door to furthered favouritism, and decisions being made my staff and not the code they're meant to follow.

So no Noah, I don't believe the consequences of the opposite could be much worse. I believe the current ones could lead to much worse, because you're only giving an event where staff was allowed to make a call with no evidence or proof, and it held. Meaning that in the future, you're only giving people attempting the same something to fall back on. By saying this is okay, we're going in a very bad direction. Follow your own rules.

I'd like to see MirrorriM or some other staffmember who can make a decision out of this wake up and reply. I'm curious to see where this is going but knowing staff in situations like these, nothing will change.

Have some faith bud, she's been good so far. I really don't see how anyone could argue what I've said, if they took the time to read it all. This is simple, are we going to let staff make these sort of judgement calls and open the door to favortism, and ruin the game? I'm pretty sure enough people would argue against that.

Btw, that Erathia quote is prolly my fav on forums

[Noah]

Sigh, this is definitely my last post about this.

Not at all Noah. I think they should implement the proper procedures, preventions, and methods to stop this. Rather than punishing completely innocent people. Anyone could take what you're saying and twist it. How many people would love to see BrokenFist or Mega Newbie, or any wb like that outta LD because their lag is obviously a factor. I'd love staff to make their own call on those situations. Difference is, there is nothing in place saying that staff has that authority. It just happend, and people are going along with it because it would be messy to fix. I don't think TW should turn a blind eye to anything. They should keep both eyes on as much as they can, as often as they can spare them because thats what being staff entails. If they can't do that, can't be impartial and follow their own structure and set of rules than they shouldn't be staff.

The only proper procedure about this would be to void all games that ends up like that game imo. I can't really see how staff magically can pull a solution to this out of their asses, i don't expect them to either. It's easy to sit on one side and tell staff to fix something without coming up with concrete ideas how to fix it. The difference between this and lag is that there are tons of ways an experienced staffer can look into a lagger, and find proof that something illegal is going on. You can't use *tinfo to find out if two captains agreed on something between themselves.

Once again, you haven't told me. Was it your squad that would have to go play BasingCrew in the Cup? I doubt Rape would bother arguing that they have a shot first, especially if you take a look at their roster, and the beating Sage already delivered to them. Was it a squad that maybe you favor over Sage? How about the people in the arena? Maybe more of them would rather see Sage in the Cup than whoever else would be put there? This should be pretty simple, as I said, Rape would be stupid to accept a match in the Cup again, it's a matter of BasingCrew taking on the proper squad. It's a matter of doing the right thing. Again, if you were the one being totally blatantly fucked here, I think you'd change your mind on what you just said.

There were so much going on and so small margins that I never was certain that we would make any TWL except TWLJ. So I honestly can't answer if it was us, I'm not going to rule it out though. Anyway there were many others in spec that is in no way affiliated with Diso that wanted the game voided as well. Also I don't give a shit about squads like Rape or Sage, I've seen too many squads come and go to have any feelings one way or another about them with a few exceptions. If I were to favor one squad in TWD cup it would be Brainwave, but I don't see how this is relevant, it wasn't for me when I made the call anyway. I did what I did because I saw someone getting a free pass into something that so many has worked hard for. I don't want to speculate what motives the others in spec had for wanting the game killed, I have no clue. I'll leave that up to you. If we were the ones this happened to I wouldn't be objective at all, that would be impossible for almost everyone, and that would influence my opinions.

In addition, you didn't answer any of my points. What about Laser? Why do they walk away scott free when they're the cause of this? Admittedly the cause of this. This whole fiasco is bullshit, stop smearing yourselves in it to try and cover that up. You guys made a mistake, plob made a judgement call, and well I like the dude, and understand he made it under pressure to have the teams picked then and not later - it was wrong. Fix the god damn mistake, all you're doing is opening the door to furthered favouritism, and decisions being made my staff and not the code they're meant to follow.

I can't answer you why staff did what they did after they killed the game. I'm not in staff and I had nothing to do with their decisions except bringing their attention to what was going on. I suggest you direct that to the correct persons.

So no Noah, I don't believe the consequences of the opposite could be much worse. I believe the current ones could lead to much worse, because you're only giving an event where staff was allowed to make a call with no evidence or proof, and it held. Meaning that in the future, you're only giving people attempting the same something to fall back on. By saying this is okay, we're going in a very bad direction. Follow your own rules.

Ok, that's your opinion. I still think it would be worse if we sent out signals that as long as we couldn't prove shit, feeding and tricking with points in TWD is free for all.

Now I'm done, have a good day, Knockers.

[Capital Knockers]

Sigh, this is definitely my last post about this. Now I'm done, have a good day, Knockers.

We'll see about that

The only proper procedure about this would be to void all games that ends up like that game imo. I can't really see how staff magically can pull a solution to this out of their asses, i don't expect them to either. It's easy to sit on one side and tell staff to fix something without coming up with concrete ideas how to fix it. The difference between this and lag is that there are tons of ways an experienced staffer can look into a lagger, and find proof that something illegal is going on. You can't use *tinfo to find out if two captains agreed on something between themselves.

First of all, this is anything but easily sitting on the sideline, telling staff to pull a solution out of their asses. I've taken alot of time to write all this, and research everything I can about this event. I've also taken the time to talk to others, and personally, I don't see why a 'magical' solution is needed. Rape has 12 people on their roster, they've obviously given up on basing. I doubt they would argue to be able to play the replacement squad for no reason, especially when (no offense guys) they'd lose. The solution is simple, how many point were Sage going to win, who needs to rightfully be playing BasingCrew this weeking.

The exact matter, isn't the issue here it's the principle. I agree, lag can be looked at by an experience staffer and the tools he/she has, and a good decision can be made. However, as you just stated, there is NO way for them to be able to tell if the captains organized this behind closed doors. No way to even HINT at it. Honestly, no one would of looked at this twice if it happend on any other day. The only reason it was made a big deal was because it was so close to qualification time. Why is it okay to punish Sage with nothing to back it up? It isn't, it's against the rules to deal out a punishment with nothing but assumption and speculation. You also previously said why would Laser out of the blue and Sage be having this match? Did you not read when Mela said that they were already challenging everyone they could? Those other squads didn't want to risk losing their points or place, so they didn't accept. What other choice does that leave Sage but to find another squad they can bd? Why should they be punished with the bad luck of having the other team walk out on that game. It makes no fucking sense!

There were so much going on and so small margins that I never was certain that we would make any TWL except TWLJ. So I honestly can't answer if it was us, I'm not going to rule it out though. Anyway there were many others in spec that is in no way affiliated with Diso that wanted the game voided as well. Also I don't give a shit about squads like Rape or Sage, I've seen too many squads come and go to have any feelings one way or another about them with a few exceptions. If I were to favor one squad in TWD cup it would be Brainwave, but I don't see how this is relevant, it wasn't for me when I made the call anyway. I did what I did because I saw someone getting a free pass into something that so many has worked hard for. I don't want to speculate what motives the others in spec had for wanting the game killed, I have no clue. I'll leave that up to you. If we were the ones this happened to I wouldn't be objective at all, that would be impossible for almost everyone, and that would influence my opinions.

You did it because you ASSUMED you saw someone getting a free pass into TWL. Something that people, yes, work hard for. Including the guys on Sage. The situation everyone saw COULD of been what people thought it was, so everyone automatically believed it with no evidence, and as more and more people did so, more people got ticked off just like you. "wtf why do they get in twl by feeding this is bullshit!" You don't have to sit long in an arena full of people making that assumption to share it yourself. Especially when it's something you know people will get worked up about easily. The point is, there is nothing to say they did anything wrong, and you're all taking a group of circumstances and pinning an explaination on them simply because it fits the profile. That's bullshit, and it's wrong. There is no excuse for it under any organized staff, and if that's not true, than we really have sunk completely to the level of this game and it's outcomes being decided by a select group of people in/with connections to power.

I can't answer you why staff did what they did after they killed the game. I'm not in staff and I had nothing to do with their decisions except bringing their attention to what was going on. I suggest you direct that to the correct persons.

Yet you rubbed it in Mela's face, and that's low. You flat out said you were happy about what you did, even though you can't prove them guilty. You're also continually arguing against solid logic with nothing but speculation and personal opinion. Whereas I'm pointing out the actual realities of the situation. I will direct this to the correct people when I see them, make no mistake. However if I can destroy this many useless arguements that they themselves might use in their defence beforehand, I'll do so.

Ok, that's your opinion. I still think it would be worse if we sent out signals that as long as we couldn't prove shit, feeding and tricking with points in TWD is free for all.

If you call standing up for whats obviously right my opinion so be it. I believe we live in a time and age where people don't get punished without a concrete reason - in real life or a video game - doesn't make a difference. It's the principle. I'm not making up random crap here, this was a mistake, and through all your arguing you can't find one solid point to stand up on. They did something wrong, without evidence, and need to fix it. Otherwise this will only mean that events like this in the future will be more more frequent and widespread. What happens when someone you don't like pulls a move like this on a squad or person(s) you like? I can tell by how much you're arguing me that you're the type of person that wouldn't be happy, nor let it go either. plob#f is a wicked guy and a good staffer, it's easy to side with him and his decision. It doesn't make it, or him right.

In addition, in no way are we sending signals that messing with TWD, or feeding is a free for all. They caught and did something about the dice/HEAVY thing, even if I think it was a completely useless punishment, it was addressed. There has, and always will be these problems. It's up to people to find better ways to combat them, not alienate our increasingly small player base by making quick decision with no evidence to support it.

[Jeenyuss]

no way i'm going to climb over that wall of text, way too much being said about a subject that only has two sides.

knocks, whiskey jack has enough points to make twld at 1360. penetrate is at 1356. we get a dd vs someone who has never dded before. it goes on for less than five minutes before they all leave to go jd. the resulting score would've been 50-14. we would've won just enough points to shoot ourselves ahead of whiskey jack. despite whether or not we were fed, on the last day of qualifications that kind of game should be emitted. i guess it's subject to opinion though.