Bots don't "make mistakes"

[Capital Knockers]

I don't see how any of this to do with the bots if even relevant. Mirr you said there was no rule that said someone can't sub right before death. There's a reason for that - the delay. Why would that delay even be in place if you were allowed to sub someone out RIGHT before they died.

They've admitted they subbed right before death on purpose, if that's allowed, remove the delay - as it's useless. Besides, do you really want every wb squads attempting to do this from now on? It has nothing to do with skill, it's lame and sickens me to see it being allowed. Especially when draft jumps on here not seconds later basically admitting what he's done and dancing around the forums acting invincible.

I'd really like to know to know what the point of the delay is. I didn't think you needed a rule to tell you that you aren't suppose to sub someone out right before they die when there is a command intergrated into the system to prevent that exact action. Are they really going to have the appeal denied over a technicality? Honestly, if something causes this many respected people to say YO, replay that shiznit - isn't that something? Hell you've even got the person that subbed in who LEFT his 3 leagues (potential triple crown squad) because he thought this is BS. What more do you need to grant an appeal?

[L1 TW]

This is to elaborate on Stabwound's post.

To the average player (or above average, we're in TWL after all), the TW Bots run the show behind the scenes and we don't really know the inner workings of the coding. Now I think it's time to show how the bots think in this situation in particular so everyone can get a handle of how this sub went down.

First there are two types of bots. RoboBots for events and <ER> usage. Matchbots for TWD games. These matchbots are the same template used for the TWL Bots. Inside of the matchbots, they use the same code for the RoboBot's spectate function. In a hosted event you'll see that the host will announce.

Players will be specced at 10 deaths. -Dameon Angell

The bot will count your deaths from the point you're at now (on the matchbots) and spec you after you go +10 deaths. Simple. When you reach 10, the bot will put you in spec, set your frequency to your team's, and unlock you from spec.

Now all Matchbots (TWD/TWL/Pick Up Game Arenas) have a secondary statistics function that the RoboBots do not have. This function handles the holding of kills/deaths/lagouts/reps per death/etc. It runs CONCURRENTLY with the Robobot !spec function. It does NOT WORK WITH the !spec function.

The difference between Statistics and !spec is that !spec won't count kills after your 10th death hits, while statistics always does. You've probably noticed that you "double kill" your last death it'll be 1 less kill than your final score on stats.

That's cause the speccing function happens before the statistical function. There's a very fine difference between !spec and death 10 on the bot, within miliseconds, cause the bots are just players that move VERY fast with their commands. Like scripts. So seconds before ease got shot the Thunder Captain sent in a !sub ease:ardour request to the bot. As ease got shot the command goes through. When the command hit ease dies and it's recorded as such (you see he has 10 deaths in his stats) and ardour comes in with his 9th death still. It was unintentional. In fact, that would be something mighty hard to do intentionally. You'd have to know exactly when your player was gonna get shot and know the exact time the sub command would go through.

The statistics function called the sub at 9. The spec function called the death at 10 at the exact same time. You can call it bot lag if you want, but either way, if you're still scratching your head and calling foul on the bots, that's how it went down. And to go with the title of the thread. The bot didn't make a mistake, it just did as it was told. It just happened to be told two things at 1 time.

I dont undersand, i need ms paint diagrams plz thxsu

[Hercules]

Yeah, sometimes while i'm sitting in spec, i keep getting deaths like someone is killing me when i'm afk.. it is possible

[Creature]

Didn't want to have to reply to this thread but the same five people are having the same discussion over and over again. Clearly some people need to learn how SUBBING WORKS.

Let's explain:

C 4:spikey> us
Ease has been substituted by Ardour, with 1 deaths left

At this point in time, the bot has recorded a substitute by Ease as the !sub command has been used. Looking at it from a programming perspective, the sub command is being called BEFORE it checks for a death. You idiots need to learn that code cannot be simultaneously read at the SAME TIME. It is technically IMPOSSIBLE for the bot to be checking for 10 deaths and applying a sub. The sub overrides and breaks the loop checking for 10 deaths in milliseconds to sub ease.

T saetep> yeah
Ease is out. 12 wins 10 losses
T ignite> whoa

How did Ease get 10 deaths if he was in spec then? On Ease's screen, due to his lag (probably 60ms) the sub has NOT occured yet. Therefore, his client is still sending packets to the bot. The bot has already completed the sub command and is now 1/100th of a millsecond going back into a loop and receieves a packet from Ease's client saying that he has DIED. Therefore, the bot finishes this loop and adds +1 to Ease's death even though he has already been subbed out. A separate function PRINTS this on the screen so everyone will cry. Contradictory to whatever you nerds are believing, the bot is STILL RECORDING statistics of players who are in spec. The method the bot is coded ensures that in order to prevent recording extra deaths, SPECS the player. Unfortunately due to the lag on Ease's screen, the bot printed out the 10 deaths when they ACTUALLY DID NOT OCCUR but ONLY OCCURED on Ease's screen. In REAL TIME, the bullet NEVER hit Ease.

Let me demonstrate with some simple pseudocoding for you nerds

for (Easedeaths < 10) {
if (sub == true) { // The bot is checking if sub used
sub Ease out for Ardour // Sub Ease out
}
return Easepacketdeaths // Get packet from Ease's client count deaths
if (Easepacketdeaths = 1) {
Easedeaths = Easedeaths + Easepacketdeaths // Add death
if (Easedeaths == 10) {
Print "Ease is out." + Easekills + "wins" + Easedeaths + "losses"
}
}

So guys, where does the issue lie? The bot completes the loop and records Ease's death from the packet that Ease sends (because Ease has not been subbed on his screen DUE TO LAG) when in fact Ease is technically never in game. You people are retarded saying he can't die in spec. Technically he CAN.

End of story. Any further questions please cry to someone who understands concept of programming and how lag works.

[Dameon Angell]

Thunder Bot Glitch: REVEALED!

This is to elaborate on Stabwound's post.

To the average player (or above average, we're in TWL after all), the TW Bots run the show behind the scenes and we don't really know the inner workings of the coding. Now I think it's time to show how the bots think in this situation in particular so everyone can get a handle of how this sub went down.

First there are two types of bots. RoboBots for events and <ER> usage. Matchbots for TWD games. These matchbots are the same template used for the TWL Bots. Inside of the matchbots, they use the same code for the RoboBot's spectate function. In a hosted event you'll see that the host will announce.

Players will be specced at 10 deaths. -Dameon Angell

The bot will count your deaths from the point you're at now (on the matchbots) and spec you after you go +10 deaths. Simple. When you reach 10, the bot will put you in spec, set your frequency to your team's, and unlock you from spec.

Now all Matchbots (TWD/TWL/Pick Up Game Arenas) have a secondary statistics function that the RoboBots do not have. This function handles the holding of kills/deaths/lagouts/reps per death/etc. It runs CONCURRENTLY with the Robobot !spec function. It does NOT WORK WITH the !spec function.

The difference between Statistics and !spec is that !spec won't count kills after your 10th death hits, while statistics always does. You've probably noticed that you "double kill" your last death it'll be 1 less kill than your final score on stats.

That's cause the speccing function happens before the statistical function. There's a very fine difference between !spec and death 10 on the bot, within miliseconds, cause the bots are just players that move VERY fast with their commands. Like scripts. So seconds before ease got shot the Thunder Captain sent in a !sub ease:ardour request to the bot. As ease got shot the command goes through. When the command hit ease dies and it's recorded as such (you see he has 10 deaths in his stats) and ardour comes in with his 9th death still. It was unintentional. In fact, that would be something mighty hard to do intentionally. You'd have to know exactly when your player was gonna get shot and know the exact time the sub command would go through.

The statistics function called the sub at 9. The spec function called the death at 10 at the exact same time. You can call it bot lag if you want, but either way, if you're still scratching your head and calling foul on the bots, that's how it went down. And to go with the title of the thread. The bot didn't make a mistake, it just did as it was told. It just happened to be told two things at 1 time.

[Kim]

Yea seriously, when the first person to jump on Ardour's statement is Eelam saying "he lies", I don't think Thunder has a case here.

[PH]

sorry but i'm inclined to believe ardour over anyone still on thunder. i don't know why, something about class and dignity.

[kthx]

He already said he left because of this sub.

[Purple Heart]

- Ardour

---

I think that does sorta prove that it was on purpose, Ardour left because of this, and Burnt even admitted to it.

Ardour leaving the squad had nothing to do with this sub, just fyi.

[Draft]

- Ardour

---

I think that does sorta prove that it was on purpose, Ardour left because of this, and Burnt even admitted to it.

i don't do subs by accident btw

[Chuckle]

almost every post i keep reading about this subject is siding with us

seriously you need to do something mirrorrim.

i could have lived with a rejection to the appeal before but after reading your reasoning i really cant accept it

[kthx]

For the record, Draft said in team chat "ard u here?" to which I replied in team chat. I looked at who was in and saw b4ser was still -3, like he had been for alot of the match, then got back to watch tv. I was shocked to realise I had actually been subbed in and I knew it was a close match to analyse the situation so I got straight down to killing/hunting. It was only after when I read up and could spend time reading the 50 lines of team chat spam that usually accompanies every thunder match that I saw draft bragging about the substitution.

- Ardour

---

I think that does sorta prove that it was on purpose, Ardour left because of this, and Burnt even admitted to it.

[Dwopple]

ty stab <3

im more disappointed that the appeal was shot down so quickly because someone felt the human eye is more accurate than the matchbots/game.


lel. look into matters before taking initiative on matters like this ^.^


<3

[Stabwound]

Whether or not Thunder did it on purpose doesnt matter. The rule about 10 deaths still works in this situation. I, along with another TWL Op, witnessed Ease get subbed before the bullet hit him. Izor acurately described the situation. So Ardour still had 1 life to use. The bot made a mistake and counted Ease's death. Using the "more than 10 deaths" rule to apply to a situation where the bot messed up doesnt make sense. If the bot didnt say that he was knocked out and the sub happened sure, it was a cheap sub to save Ease. Despite winning an appeal, it still is a cheap sub. But there is no rule against subbing someone out right before they're killed. Perhaps we can look into that next season.

Wow, what an epic failure.

Bots can't make mistakes like this. It doesn't matter what you saw, or Pure_Luck saw, or anyone else saw: it is literally impossible for the bot to make a mistake in thinking someone died when they didn't. The only way the bot counts a kill is when the player's client itself calculates that he has <0 energy and is dead, and then sends the packet saying that he died. Ease had 10 deaths, and that is because on HIS SCREEN the bullet hit him and he died. It is completely irrelevant what ANY spectator saw in this case.

The actual bug is this: the TWL bots, due to the built-in subbing delay, will allow an eliminated player to be subbed if the command is sent in the small frame of time before they would die and be eliminated. I highly doubt this was intentional on Thunder's part, but is undeniably grounds for a replay. It is a bug in the bot that clearly affected the outcome of the game, as they had an extra player in that should not have been in. Do you see how the final score is 50-47, yet the winning team has 4 deaths left? I'm pretty sure that if Pirates had gotten 3 more kills, the game would have ended and they would have won, yet Thunder would have still had a player in.

It is absolutely ridiculous that this appeal was denied. I appreciate the work that staff and the TWL Ops put into the game, but denying this appeal was without a doubt an incorrect call and should be reversed.