Mattey makes a good point: TWL in need of changes?

[Miku19]

Roster cap of 15. That should teach everybody!

[Tsumetai]

Yeah, there is a problem with too much talent in too few squads. However, you can't really force a fix there, because people group together the way they do to be on the same squad as people they like and to avoid the people they don't like. If you force a break up of squads via some sort of draft, you're going to end up with all sorts of drama when people who hate each others guts end up on the same squad. I'm certain there would be a number of players who would simply stop playing because they would end up in a squad and/or position they didn't like; maybe one of their captains is the person they hate the most in TW, or they lose out on playing with a friend they've been playing with for the last 6 years, or they end up playing in a different role depth-wise that would see their playing time decrease or change in some way.

If this draft thing were to happen I'd probably be bummed out by being separated from certain people on Pene, but at the same time there really isn't anyone I might end up with that would make me hate being on the new squad and force me to raqequit, and I'm also plenty friendly with people on other squads, so odds are decent that it could even be a net positive for me when considering the excitement and "freshness" such a draft would bring to the game. But I'm not every player. It would balance the squads and maybe make some inactive players active again because it's new and exciting or whatever, but you'd also lose people who got a particularly bad deal.

You'd have a bloody riot if you ever tried to implement it, too. Whatever fix there might be (other than the community collectively deciding to voluntarily balance things out), it's not gonna be a policy that forces players to do something they don't want to do. The second they don't like playing the game, they'll leave. The change needs to be more incentive-based, rather than be a command/order. Make transit between squads to make things even worth enough that players will do it voluntarily, is what I mean.

[kthx]

This seems like one of those things that some faggot new staff talks some dipshit upper staffer into doing, nobody likes it, it doesn't work, and there are countless threads pointing out that both staffers are fucking retarded and listen to the people who actually know how this zone runs, and then it changes it back after its already too late and 20-30 people have quit playing because they are retarded.

Isn't that what always happens when some newbie makes a thread these days?

[Jeenyuss]

im sure losing those 3 was such a HUGE loss with tsumetai, royst, solacer, trasher, squallff8, acidbomber, zhou, turmio on the roster as well

shut the fuck up

[Downfall]

Lulz, thunder(45) and heist(42) have more on twd roster than pene(38).

[the_paul]

Better to not discuss any new ideas and just assume everything is horrible and the old methods are the best. I bet bots were the worst thing to ever happen to this zone.

[Jason]

this needs to happen, but it won't happen. there are too many "my e-peen is larger than yours" idiots who think it's fun to win year after year with next to no parity in the league.

news flash: your back-to-back-to-back titles mean jack shit. the game isn't anywhere near competitive as it once was, and it's because you continue to hog all the (increasingly sparse) talent which allows you to beat up on some newbies. congrats, douchebags.

[kthx]

Yeah lets make people join squads full of people they don't want to squad with and play with newbies who aren't on the same level of them and chances are they are also slightly if not fully retarded. That will make people want to play. FFS since when do people cry and bitch about this game being unfair instead of just trying to get better. You guys act like there hasn't always been powerhouse squads since the first TWL. You guys need to understand that being on a veteran squad with friends isn't only about talent, its about not being on a chat with a bunch of fucking retards who act so fucking stupid that it makes you want to logoff forever.

[Iron]

I kinda agree with kthx, ppl should stop cry about things and work harder to get better.

[ogron]

well perhaps a draft isn't the answer (or not an answer people would accept), but i mean we're a small enough community that we can make changes -- look at all the radical changes to pub over the years, the addition of TWD and bots from setting up matches in #spoon with mods, TWEL/duels, etc., the addition of base and javing to TWL, TWFD, TWSD -- even if a draft or that particular idea isn't it, perhaps we can work on something else?

I think even the people on those dominant squads don't want the game to die and might be amenable to some changes, especially if part of the process. i see megaman posting in the trench wars forums talking about getting people into basing and keeping new players that come into the game, i think there is some willingness to experiment.

[Jones]

You guys need to understand that being on a veteran squad with friends isn't only about talent, its about not being on a chat with a bunch of fucking retards who act so fucking stupid that it makes you want to logoff forever.

quoted for truth

[Tsumetai]

well perhaps a draft isn't the answer (or not an answer people would accept), but i mean we're a small enough community that we can make changes -- look at all the radical changes to pub over the years, the addition of TWD and bots from setting up matches in #spoon with mods, TWEL/duels, etc., the addition of base and javing to TWL, TWFD, TWSD -- even if a draft or that particular idea isn't it, perhaps we can work on something else?

I think even the people on those dominant squads don't want the game to die and might be amenable to some changes, especially if part of the process. i see megaman posting in the trench wars forums talking about getting people into basing and keeping new players that come into the game, i think there is some willingness to experiment.

Like I said, you have to think in terms of persuading people to move in the right direction with proposed rule/whatever changes, not with decrees from staff that force the solution. Take a look at those people who want to join a squad like Pene or Dice for basing, etc, knowing they probably won't start in TWL with a set of core players already established there. Figure out what they're looking for when they join those squads and use your rule changes to create that in the other squad, or if that's not possible/desirable figure out something they want MORE and set up THAT up in other/new squads.

Beyond encouraging the inclusion of new training squads that bring pubbers into ?go base and then into serious BDs (which is always a good thing and should continue to be priority #1, I would say), staff has to make veteran players want to do the shit that is good for the game, because if they're seriously unhappy with any changes they'll just log off and not bother coming back. The people who are still playing this decade-and-a-half-old 2D spaceship game are not diehards who will absolutely stay with this game to the bitter end, they're still here because this game manages to offer a net positive experience for them in comparison to whatever other gaming options they have. So even if every other online game they might try is absolute shit to them, that doesn't mean they won't leave THIS game for some offline gaming alternative when said experience starts getting worse, or even, Zeus's balls, go OUTSIDE with real people just a little more often than they already do.

It really is that simple. Fuck with the players enough and they will leave. Whatever they still like about this game doesn't give them infinite tolerance for shit they don't like being added onto it, not by a long shot. You absolutely have to tread lightly here, because any ham fisted "solution" is going to fuck you more than the problem you're trying to fix.

[Supreme]

Figure out what they're looking for when they join those squads and use your rule changes to create that in the other squad

Medals!

[schope]

Bad idea. People like the freedom to choose which players they squad with, take that away and it will only make people quit and kill the game even faster.

I'm also with burnt. Game is based on freedom of choosing where you play and who you play/squad with.

Thats why draft leagues didnt reach the same success.

On the other hand i disagree with your arguments.

Penetrate was made with a bunch of pubbers and a few good players. Some new talents arised and are arround. It was like a Rejected Basers reborn

Also twbd allways had 2/3/4 squads at most as title contenders. It's nearly impossible to have more than that.

[megaman89]

TWLB Winners:

S8: Dice
S9: -Final-
S10: Dice
S11: Dice
S12: Penetrate
S13: Dice
S14: Penetrate
S15: Dice

TWLJ Winners:

S8: Dice
S9: Syndicate
S10: Thunder
S11: Thunder
S12: Thunder
S13: Thunder
S14: Sk8 (Thunder)
S15: Dice

In the last 8 seasons, Dice/Pene have won 7/8 basing titles, and Dice/Thunder 7/8 javing titles.

Season 7 was the start of the decline of the TW population and the consolidation of the majority of the good players into several dynastic squads began in Season 8. Prior to that, there was a different winner every year. Good squads that build up new talent, give the status quo a challenge, lose, dissolve, and all their talent gets assimilated by the top 2/3 squads, then the process repeats.

This isn't a complaint, I think these dynastic squads should be commended for having been so dominant over such a long period of time and having such managerial acumen to stay on top, but perhaps we could trust-bust these monopolies, without completely throwing the system out, and get a more competitive game going, while still maintaining the legacy of those squads?

There's enough talent on the benches of most of top 4-5 squads to make another 3-4 squads or seriously bolster the rosters of mid-tier squads to make them serious contenders -- you have guys like SquallFF8 who were starters in the finals last year sitting on the bench... seems like a complete waste.


Potential Idea:

You take 10 squads every year, and allow them to keep 10 core players, and have a draft for the rest.

So, for argument's sake, let's say Dice chooses to keep these 10 players as their core:

Cape
Stayon
megaman89
cripple
JAMAL
a2m
tabarnak!!!
domi
waven
oder


Still a pretty dominant force, but they dont get to keep Glavitik, Mikes, NL>Triggger, wbm, riske, sphinx, paska, LF, Leitz, grandmastahs, Delectable, best, dsb, evildeed, tiny etc. unless they draft them.

I think it would make the league better, more competitive, and help keep the game alive. Also, if new pub map system were put into place to help retain new players and promote basing and getting new guys into ship 3 ASAP and getting kills in FR, could really help keep this game alive.

Just a thought.

Worst idea I ever saw, did you ever play the draft league? It's a complete clusterfuck that just frustrates the hell out of players and captains. Why should people be forced to play with people they don't like or think are good? (even though I'm playing with Tiny this season again) Also did you even bother to look at the first 7 seasons of TWL? The winners consisted of siege/elusive players and then syndicate/light which had players from siege/elusive just with different squad names pretty much. I agree with what Burnt said, probably the only time I'll ever do that again.