TWL PROPOSAL

[Ephemeral]

Ricko,
I don’t know how to make it more clear; the entire zone suffers from operating in the ‘just git er done’ mode instead of ‘doing it right’ mode. You started with the right approach by posting your idea here so that others can vet the proposal but you are missing the boat by dismissing getting a true SOW from those who would actually be doing the work. (Like BWP is suggesting.)

TW culture HAS to break out of this ‘git er done’ mode if it wants to continue to survive. Why? Because with low population the zone can’t handle mistakes like the most recent TWL season. Call it non-mainstream if you want but go review the 200 post thread to see what many player felt about its impact to TW.

When a culture deteriorates to a ‘just git er done’ mode it permeates to every aspect. Why do so many players have a disregard for staff? Why do so many players simply not give a shit? Why do so many good people contribute but then leave? IMO this all is the same problem; a badly dysfunctional culture.

I am not pissing on your idea, for all I know it may indeed be a worthwhile improvement. But what I do know is that the zone doesn’t need is another cluster fuck like this past TWL season. So the only part I am pissing in is your dismissal of approaching this change like every other change the zone has made in the last 15 years; half-assed and without even acknowledging the potential risks and costs or the development.
eph

[but...why...per...]

I'm not so sure that would work Shadow, you would end up with wb squads qualifying for twlj and twlb, maybe without any javvers or basers, it wouldn't really offer much by way of competition for those leagues. Also, how would you decide which 8 squads make it? What if several squads are only 1 leaguers?

I'm just trying to think from a pragmatic view point, whilst vetting systems can be put in place, how could you ensure that it offers the competition you were looking for? It seems to offer up more problems rather than solutions at the moment.

We need to start listing ideas with pros/cons and feasibility/impact (How easy is it to do? Who/what will it affect, do the pros outweigh the cons?)

[Crescent Seal]

A similar points table version is used in the sport of cricket. My only concern is that after going through all of that trouble to set it up would it make a difference? For example, in LD the top 4 squads had a pretty huge win:loss ratio when compared with the bottom 4. Wolf itself had a 2 game lead from the 5th squad. My point is that if the competition is this bad then what difference would a points system really make in the end? This may have worked when competition was well spread but I don't think it would make much of a difference currently.

Here are a few ideas I had (which I've probably said on here thousands of times by now):

1. Fix the TWL site to mirror the TWD stats. Players get more into the spirit of TWL if they can keep up with the statistics.
2. TWD is our bread and butter. Create a way to increase activity in TWD and TWL will follow naturally. Give recognition to the most active TWD player, squad, highest kills, most wins, etc.
3. Since pubbux will never go away, why not let people bet on TWD games? Im sure this may lead to pubbers entering TWD arenas.
4. Make elim, wbduel, and javduel worth playing. Reset the stats every 6 months and give recognition to the best players of these formats too with medals of their own (make them less "glorified" than the TWL ones of course).
5. Stop hiring any willing random faggot to positions of staff that involve TWD or TWL. Competence is key.

[Ricko]

Eph - the qan change 30 seconds before the match is still not relevant to this TWL proposal and in this proposal I clearly stated TWLB playoffs should be best of 3 to 15 minutes every round. By setting these rules early we won't end up with the same incidents such as the bot change last minute., plus 3 races to 20 minutes is way too long.

Yes TW has struggled due to continual 'suggestions' that just keep on adding to the side of other issues, but TWL is a wing of the game, not the game itself. Formatting how TWL is run to benefit the zone is different to continual changes to the lev or weasel.

With the TWL site being re-structured/changed at the moment it makes complete sense to sort out what the TWL structure will be next year and the coding needed to make it run smoothly.

[Turban]

COULD MY BRAIN WORK PROPERLY ALREADY. writing feels so off, can't even think before typing. brb fixing again.

[Ephemeral]

Qan was clear, he made a 30 second change but didn't have the time/resources to test and this ended up with a wrecked season. M_M called it his most embarrassing moment.

TW is made up of one giant 'open source' ball of code. The vast majority of it has problems. This is not to say that the people who wrote it were clueless. It has never really been tested. Most ideas were done without thinking through the exploits. It has now been 'added on to' and touched by many, many different people. No one has really 'owned' the code, it is not like TW is a company.

And the problems extend beyond the code. We also have all kinds of other issues like not being able to control the biller. And when we do get some interest in other features like Distension and hockey we hit a brick wall when we go to expand them.

If you cannot see the commonality of these issues (not having the resources to do things correctly) then we will never be on the same page. You are suggesting the same things that the zone has done in the previous 18 years, add/change more stuff with little or no regard (or even acknowledgment) of the actual cost of doing them. But don't let history be meaningful, just keep coming with more ideas and keep tweaking things like TWL. It just my opinion and I may be wrong but it seems to me that doing more of the same thing we have done for years isn't working.
eph

[Turban]

take those chill pills, sir.

i'll help out with the next TWL season if my real life situation allows it. not sure what my schedule is going to look like in 7 months and i'm not too fond of making promises that i can't keep with 100% certainity.

what ricko proposed is fairly simple to implement and if there's truly a lack of coders then nothing is preventing us from doing some of the work manually. most of us know that the code in tw-core is a complete mess because everyone has touched the code. that doesn't change the fact that something has to change, the current league structure is atrocious and clearly outdated. it really shouldn't be that hard to make some quality-of-life improvements to the current league structure. not like we're proposing to completely remake TWL, just simple tweaking to make it more legit. :b

i've helped hosting tournaments without the help of bots or the likes in other games, basically doing everything manually with the standings, scheduling and rules, and there has been no issues. surely players could forgive us for a small delay when giving out the points to squads. at the moment we just have a lack of competent hosts, that's the only thing that needs to be fixed.

limiting TWL to only 8 different squads would be a bad idea. some people refuse to squad with others and it would force captains to make the dreaded decision of "axe player X to recruit player Y" if they want to be competitive. it's a good thing to have some kind of "team diversity". i'd prefer to have 18 different teams playing in TWL rather than forcing them to participate in all 3 leagues and i'm sure most agree with me on this one.

[Shaddowknight]

Im in an angry mood today, sorry.

[Shaddowknight]

Instead of 8 squads in each league, just do 8 squads. Period. Increase roster caps to allow for squads to dedicate spots to basers, wb, and jav, and force squads to compete in each division. As we sit now, we would have a better time/twl experience with 8 squads compared to 18, with only 2-4 actually having any resemblance of a chance of winning. If you want to make it more competetive, thinning players out by force is a bad way to go. Sure, not everyone will get on a squad or get to play each week, but you know what, THATS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR AN "ELITE" LEAGUE. None of this bullshit "everyone gets to play" teeball league. Its laughable as a premier league right now, so that is what needs to be worked on. Why bother watching or caring when its Pandora faceraping another half-asses squad who got into TWLJ with a 2-27 record in twjd?

[Ricko]

1. A new TWL website is already being developed

2. Given how good guys are like qan at coding, not really sure why coding that 1 win = 3 points instead of 1 and if it's a win by over 20 kills it would be 4 points not 1 point would take up that much time? I can't imagine anything I've suggested is that far out of what we already have set up....you're making it sound like I just suggested turning SS into a 4d game? Playing twice as many matches = creating twice as many matches on the twl site, not difficult.

3. Given the 'cluster fuck' that was TWL this season it CLEARLY is one of the top things on our agenda other than new player retention. Coming up with a new structure for TWL is necessary, if you think we need to leave TWL as it is then you are mistaken.

4. This is a proposal for people to discuss if they think these changes would be good for TWL or not, and it's also being done way in advance of next season (TWLD final hasn't even happened for this season yet). When would be a better time to discuss the necessary TWL changes to motivate people to want to play it?

5. Not really sure how qan changing the bot to a 20 minute game instead of 15 minute and it going wrong is really relevant to proposing a new structure for TWL next season.

[Turban]

i think we wouldn't even need much coding, to be honest. this point system could easily be done manually with someone adding the points after the games are finished to the current standings. we could even have the standings posted on the forums if we can't get a new website.

more games would require more staffers and that's the biggest problem we would face. almost every season has a lack of twl hosts, forcing the TWL ops to host 2 or even 3 games at once - which is never a good thing - and fixing that should be a high priority for staff. we could get volunteers to help out with the hosting that aren't staff; this was suggested before and i think it could've worked just fine. basically league referees that aren't staff, just regular players, trained by staff just to host games.

it seems that we have plenty of people that are willing to dedicate some of their time to make the next TWL a success. unfortunately we also need to make some changes in the league structure to make it more fun and competitive, the old system is just too plain and unappealing.

[olde]

ss isn't getting any younger! atleast try sumthing new!

Anyway I mean lets face its time for change, the last few seasons have been terrible and embarrassing to the zone/game. Its to the point its taken as such a joke the veterans don't wanna play, I can't tell you how many ppl I had say no to playing twl. Becuase its in such bad shape.. ITs been the same for over a decade I've changed the world has changed. Change is for the better now lets change the game to make it more fun , exciting , skillful , and strategic. BECAUSE right twl is dying people are bored with it , if you chose to do nothing with it and run it the same as this year it WILL die...... time for change catch up with the world !! Everything changed , every sport has changed you have all changed since the beginning of twl season 1. Let the game change.. it couldn't get any worse then this year! .. jajaja sorry for typo's if any typing this on my phone well taken a shit! Save twl and save ss!!!!! Pz

[Ephemeral]

Ricko
I am a bit surprised that anyone would propose any kind of significant expansive changes after coming off the current TWL cluster fuck. Obviously the zone does not have the resources to run it the way it existed. Qan isn’t a moron. He clearly stated why he made the requested changes he was asked to; he is stretched too thin to test anything. He is a guy who has poured huge amounts of time into the zone and cares a lot about it. Yet here even with what appeared to be a simple request ended up marring TWL for a long time to come. This season will always have an asterisk next to it and the reason is simple; the zone didn’t have enough resources to do shit right.

The approach to keep adding more and more features to the zone has not proven successful. It takes a lot of resources to manage a ever growing ball of code, configuration settings, and web sites. The zone already has run dry and the danger of burning out the existing resources is significant. We do not even have the resources to generate and develop the most basic features of a new player training routine so a brand new player feels somewhat invested. But your post which includes things like 'disadvantages' and 'issues' doesn't even mention this???

So what is the scope of work here? Get Qan to tell you what it would take, in man-hours, to get this developed. Go back and look at his reply on what it would have taken to test even the minor change he made and then figure out what this would take to test your suggestions. Then compare the SOW to the possible benefits and ask yourself if this holds water.
eph

[Turban]

how about just having two games on a Sunday? we could change the time slots a bit (1PM - 7PM EST) to allow more wiggling room for scheduling; i'm a bit worried that this could overburden staff, but at least most of us could show this way and it should be more fun to watch/play more games. it wouldn't fix the mid-week inactivity problem and that's probably something you wanted to change.

we could always try to running a TWD cup during TWL that would run from Monday through Friday, i guess.

[Ricko]

gotcha, nice use of the word thrice too! I think playing each squad twice regular season would be much better and as you say, it makes it more of a league. If you lose to a squad once, it'd be great to know you have another shot at beating them in a months time for the repeat match. This would also allow for teams to show how they have come on during the 2 month period....say a squad lost to wolf 50-45 but then beat them 50-40 in the repeat fixture it would show to everyone that they have been putting in the effort and are a good squad.

Our issue is where would you put the other 7 matches for regular season? Mid week is an issue as already discussed but putting it on a Saturday AND a Sunday would be no more beneficial - don't think many people would give up their Saturdays for TWL.