Official TWLB Draft Proposal (outdated -- check newer thread)

[megaman89]

TWL is TWL, not TWDT. You do this and TWLB is dead, I know I would not play in this shit. This is what TWDT is for. Anyone remember the finals JUST last season? They were some of the best basing games I ever played in and I've played in most likely the most TWLB playoff games/finals (and won every final) out of everyone. Stupid, stupid idea.

[Tiny]

Thought, instead of completely re-working twlb into a draft, how about reworking the capping system. Take players in twd, and give them a rating like in twdt (rating system, not full on twdt), which you could easily take off the twdt system in place already and applying a twlb cap as far as talent goes. I hate to pick on dudgeon, but they seem to be a prime example. Take dudgeon and give players points based on the abilities they have in basing ship+activity etc etc and cap them on "TWLB rating cap system". Because they have so many player that are so good at so many ships, this would force them to let go of their 5/6/7/8 string shark etc etc. Its not that dudgeon is hoarding all the "basers" its that dudgeon is hoarding all the "basers" that can play many more ships. so for example...stayon rating would be a 9 terr / 10 spid / 9 shark/ 10 activity, as I would have a 5 spid/5 shark/6 terr (5.5 rounded lol)/ 8 activity. working some system based on the 15/20/25 + basing point system cap. This would allow people to be able to stay on squads for twld/twlj/twlb but nerf the stacking. Again, just a thought, and not thought all the way through, but im sure someone could run with this as opposed to essentially being on 2 squad during twl and diminishing twlb.

I am for change in twlb, but I'm not for the twlb draft as proposed as it would completely erase all history of twlb in my mind. I'm not a baser, but I feel like imposing more strict caps as opposed to jumbling the squads into a draft would be better.

[bkgmjo]

In thailand ppl can reduce their punishments by winning fights against tourists, might be a way to get ppl motivated for TWL

http://prisonfight.com/

[ogron]

TWL isn't for newbies, it's for the best players in their respective leagues. TWDT is the pro-am where newbies are featured and gain competitive experience. In fact, I've been one of the biggest proponents for new players over the years, and I doubled the amount of new and TWD players required in TWDT (and tripled it in base.)

TWDT is not analogous to this at all, it's an argument people on stacked squads make to cling to maximizing their % of getting an 8 pixel .gif of a medal on a website in a noncompetitive league.

TWDT-B has 3 of the 8 starter spots reserved for newer players, for starters, many TWL players don't play it, the talent is spread too thinly across 8 teams, and many of those 8 teams' captains aren't basers, don't know who to draft, and aren't even focused on that league and are instead trying to win TWDT-J or TWDT-D.

The majority of the competitive sports leagues in the world operate on a draft, with a salary cap on top. Moreover, they have 30 teams. We're talking about 6 competitive teams and a partial draft where you start with a core of 1-3 players.

As we've said, the 7-8 team spots would likely be for 2 squads like Vikings or Attack or w/e, you could have a tourny (or use the TWD ladder) for those final two spots and gain some TWL experience, but you're not the focus of the league, the veterans are.

The primary focus of TWLB is on high-level competitive teams. So as TWL ops our focus is on competitiveness of top-level basing squads. When I run TWDT my focus is on the newbies.


TWLB History

Over the past few years the competition has declined severely. We went from Season 12, with 8 top-tier championship caliber teams, to Season 16, with only several real contenders.

Dice broke up Season 17, and their core seeded the rest of the league and we had 8 good teams again. The problem was that Pandora was in full tryhard stack mode and the final result was never really in doubt.

Season 18 was the least competitive season in history at that point, with Dice, Pandora, and Enemy (Penetrate core) as the big 3, with Value/Fierce/Revenge/Dudgeon fielding solid lines but unable to compete with the powerhouses.

Last season, Season 19, saw a slight improvement in terms of championship contenders, with Dudgeon (Dice core), Thunder (Pandora core), Enemy, and Royal as the big 4, but Royal struggled all season to get people to show and 1/3 of their team almost left. Cape/a2m/Cripple tried to help the league balance by creating Royal but it was a huge struggle without top-tier active talent. Beyond those four the league was pretty bad, Sweet/Cobra/Paladen/Lego was not competitive enough to challenge those stacked squads.

We're now currently at Season 20. Over the last 10 seasons, there have been 4 cores of players that have reached the Finals. Dice, Pandora, Penetrate, and Revenge (glavitik/squallFF8/menelvagor/hellkite) -- with Sagers mixed in. And there's been tons of crossover between players (Solace won on Penetrate and Pandora, Mattey/Shayde have played for Dice and Pandora, etc.) Almost everyone has played with everyone at some point at the highest level.

The notion Tiny brings up that it affects TWL history is nonsense, or that people can't play together. "Gosh, what about the legacy of Dice vs Pandora, they're mortal enemies who only play against each other, never with."

Except Dreamwin and Spezza both beat Dice S18 with Pandora, then joined Dice to beat Pandora S19. And Mattey has started for both Dice and Pandora. And Shayde. And Mcvicar. And Renzi. And Zidane. The list goes on and on and on.




But in those ten seasons, there's only been about 80 players to meaningfully contribute to those Finals' runs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

There's about 50 of those players who are still around, and 25 of them who are actively basing.

If you don't have a significant share of the 25 active players on that list, you're not able to be competitive.

So what's the difference between this season and the last two season with 3-4 powerhouse squads and the rest of the league a dumpster fire?

The difference is the the majority of the Penetrate, Pandora, and Revenge/Sage cores don't play this game anymore, and Dice/Dudgeon has 41% of the top-tier talent in the league. There aren't 3-4 powerhouse squads -- there's one. At this point why have a season, just give them their 8 pixel medals.

You can see why the only top-tier basers opposed at the moment are all on Dudgeon.

And that's not an endorsement for S17 or S18 -- This is the third time I submit this proposal. I've said it many times over the years to break up the big banks and have a healthier league with more competition. But AT LEAST there were multiple teams with chances at the title, unlike this year.

That's not the only problem. The other issue is confidence in Captains.

If TWLB was held two weeks ago, LEGO would be champions. They had the best roster in basing by a mile. If it was held today, it would be a very different story. Veteran basers don't have the confidence in df/joemama/Tj Hazuki to lead a Championship caliber team to the Finals. The roster had talent at every position, nice people, a good atmosphere, and all their caps are sociable and likeable.

Even multiple-time TWLB winners like a2m struggled, and 1/3 of Royal left after losing a game or two last year. Without those Penetrate/Pandora/Revenge cores with bankable captains, human nature takes over and people flee, sit on benches of comfy stacked squads, go where they know there will be likely success. It's not a criticism, it's just a fact. It's good survival instincts.

We have all collectively proven that we are not capable of self-regulation. All the comments saying things will fix themselves sound like those idiot republicans trying to destroy the Dodd-Franks act or the EPA or the IRS, arguing the free market will self-correct and rules and oversight are killing jobs/the economy.

There is enough talent to field 6 competitive squads able to vie for a title that actually means something.

In five years, this game will be completely dead. Would you rather have fun, and close competitive basing games every week RIGHT NOW and earn a title, or would you rather play in a dumpster fire of a league where your % odds of winning are higher so you can look at a screenshot of your name in your Pictures folder in 2020 with a red medal next to you that no one cares about?

The game is dying, this league is dying, it needs change, and we need to pool all the available basing talent into the maximum number of squads possible to have multiple squads able of competing at the highest level.

Please, I implore you, do it for yourself and for your leaguemates. Give this a chance for one season. If you hate it I'll resign from Staff and you can go back to the old TWLB and I'll never write a single forum post on the subject again.

[ogron]

Breaking news: Dudgeon is not interested

I hate to pick on dudgeon, but they seem to be a prime example.

lol, you're surprised a squad in an 8-Team league that has 41% of the top-tier talent is opposed to a more balanced, competitive league?

Their entire strategy at this point is to threaten to quit and throw bds vs. Fierce to make league look more competitive.

Well, I should say thus far the negative feedback from them extends to Dreamwin, nokkonen, Commodo, and megaman -- Had positive feedback from one of them, and haven't heard from the rest. I'd be interested to hear what Stayon and Mikkiz have to say. At the moment, however, it seems most are towing the company line.

[Ephemeral]

Claus,
Your efforts over the last few years have been notable. But the fact that you got little traction for it is also notable. This has nothing to do with the quality of your suggestion(s), it has to do with the players not wanting/caring in the context of the zone.

They only care about themselves and what they want. They ’bless’ the zone with their presence for a few weeks per year and expect the zone to cater to them. Why? Because they excel at shooting a digital bullet across a computer screen? This is what makes them so special? LOL

As far as I am concerned, kill off TWLB. If desired, start a new tourney (under new name) to replace it. This kind of delineation would be good for everyone. Those who want to come back, can. Those who want to retain their historic metals for the legacy TWLB, can.

I would go so far as to recommend that you, Turb and/or MM simply chose balanced teams yourselves. Don’t give anyone but yourselves the opportunity to decide who is on which team. Teams can name themselves anyway they want (new or existing team names). As long as you can turn down the inevitable whining and PMs to place certain people on certain teams, it should provide the best chance for a competitive tourney.

Lastly, we all have to understand why we play this game. For myself, I play for a challenge. (Believe me, playing in Pub with Freespirit as your terrier is challenging. Playing on a non-stacked team is challenging.) I know the level of shark that I am, have plenty of room to get better. Perhaps some of the other ‘vets’ feel they are as good as a player can be and don’t play for a challenge; the games come so easy to them and they consider themselves perfect?

The worst thing we can do is have another non-competitive TWL by supporting stacked teams. Please do whatever it takes to break up this lame-ass situation, even if it means the zone sees a few ‘vets’ get mad.
Eph

[Spezza]

I think this really takes away from the work that the prayer / lego / 24/7 bd captains have done during the offseason. The 6 squad idea is pretty idealist too and alienates the players that actually play right now, I don't know why we think those 6 teams of players would all come back (i know alot of them play but alot of them don't really). It's not a bad idea and do what you want but saying it's twlb and not twdtb is kinda wrong, you are drafting people into teams.. and shitting on the new players by making them face 6 teams that are "vets". Its honestly crazy that people cant get good enough to beat players that barely play, need some new coaches or some shit.

P.S. Megaman not lost a finals? :\

[ogron]

Claus,
Your efforts over the last few years have been notable. But the fact that you got little traction for it is also notable. This has nothing to do with the quality of your suggestion(s), it has to do with the players not wanting/caring in the context of the zone.

They only care about themselves and what they want. They ’bless’ the zone with their presence for a few weeks per year and expect the zone to cater to them. Why? Because they excel at shooting a digital bullet across a computer screen? This is what makes them so special? LOL

As far as I am concerned, kill off TWLB. If desired, start a new tourney (under new name) to replace it. This kind of delineation would be good for everyone. Those who want to come back, can. Those who want to retain their historic metals for the legacy TWLB, can.

I would go so far as to recommend that you, Turb and/or MM simply chose balanced teams yourselves. Don’t give anyone but yourselves the opportunity to decide who is on which team. Teams can name themselves anyway they want (new or existing team names). As long as you can turn down the inevitable whining and PMs to place certain people on certain teams, it should provide the best chance for a competitive tourney.

Lastly, we all have to understand why we play this game. For myself, I play for a challenge. (Believe me, playing in Pub with Freespirit as your terrier is challenging. Playing on a non-stacked team is challenging.) I know the level of shark that I am, have plenty of room to get better. Perhaps some of the other ‘vets’ feel they are as good as a player can be and don’t play for a challenge; the games come so easy to them and they consider themselves perfect?

The worst thing we can do is have another non-competitive TWL by supporting stacked teams. Please do whatever it takes to break up this lame-ass situation, even if it means the zone sees a few ‘vets’ get mad.
Eph

Eph,
Don't get too disheartened by the forum comments. Again, it's always going to be the disproportional vocal minority who are against something that will speak up the loudest. I've heard way more positive comments than negative, yet you would think the opposite reading this thread.

That is always going to happen. People who are fine with the proposed changes tend to not post.

And I wouldn't worry about us being bullied. Change is coming either way. The point is give the veteran basing population a chance to discuss issues, propose alternative fixes, debate the finer points of what is going to happen.

People acting like babies and threatening to quit because they don't get their way will have zero effect on TWLB moving forward. Persuasive arguments and intelligent solutions are far more likely to have an impact.

I really hope those supportive of change speak up (evil triumphs when good men do nothing and all that.) Dealing with selfish people who want every advantage regardless of its impact on the entire league is exhaustive. Turban and I have put in a ton of work running TWL and TWDT the past several years, and standing up and saying "yes to change" or "I'm more or less okay with this" takes little effort.

We're not expecting anyone to be thrilled about it. I'm not thrilled about it. But the game is dying, and the point of a competitive league is, erm, well, competition. It's more important for the entire league to be competitive than the 10 starters on one squad to have a guaranteed a title.

I would take having 500 active basers and no changes over having 100 and being in this situation in a heartbeat.

[ogron]

Several people also suggested this:

Another possibility in lieu of a draft would be simply manually creating 5 well-stocked teams along traditional lines of players who've played together over the years and tweaking them with input from captains, ops, and basers, then letting 3 outside teams fight for several those 3 spots to get TWLB experience.

[Turban]

Nevertheless, the basing scene is in bad shape right now. The fact of the matter is that something needs to be done before it is too late.

First of all, there is absolutely no reason for players to be stacking on two to three different squads. This only deals damage to the zone and we have already hit a critical point. The fact that our players are still sticking with the same group of players and teams clearly shows that the league is in a poor condition. The competition truly has hit the rock bottom and action needs to be taken before it is too late, whether it is done by the players or by us.It seems like only very few of our high-caliber players have shown signs of positivity by wanting to challenge themselves on a lesser team. These are the types of players that want to help other players and teams to improve, which in return helps the basing scene, and additionally they get a chance to prove everyone that they are indeed one of the better players to play this zone. The lack of these players having such mentality is by itself an alarming sign and tells us everything we need to know about the current state of the league -- the vast majority seem to believe that the world is rotating around them, and that self-centric, egoistical attitude is what is contributing to the fall of this league.

We only have two to three realistic paths to take at this point in time if we wish to improve the basing scene as a whole and increase the life expectancy of this zone. Now, I do not want to exclude the new talent from the chance of proving themselves on the grand stage as it is an excellent way to gain some valuable competitive experience, and to get to know other players with more experience through competition, and that is one of the things we need a solution for right now. After all, these players that are trying to break into the scene are the lifeline of this league, we need these new players to be brought to the scene as their will to compete and improve themselves is unparallelled at this point in time. They are our best chance of survival, and if we can properly cater these players then we will have several seasons ahead of us.

We can not call this a premier league if there is no competition between most of the teams. There should always be a good balance in the competition for it to be called a competition.

I want to hope that we still have a future with several seasons ahead of us as this game and community is something special for me. I do not want to see the league completely die because certain players want to utterly dominate the competition.

[Dreamwin]

The effort you have put in the past couple of years is amazing. I respect you for that, claus.

I still think this is a horrible idea. Several good points have already been mentioned by other players.

lol, you're surprised a squad in an 8-Team league that has 41% of the top-tier talent is opposed to a more balanced, competitive league?

I assume you have done the rating list. I would not agree with several ratings. I'm sure some people would not agree either. Yet, you are basing this kind of information as "facts".

What we built in dudgeon more than a year ago. What some of the "weaker" squads like Vikings/prayer has built recently and during off-season - All goes down the drain.
We have under 20 players in our roster. It would be under 15 if we removed our inactive IRL friends and loyal long-time members.

Remember the finals last season? Thunder was 8 seconds away from the victory leading finals 2-0. I died at 14:20-xx:xx and you guys had the flagroom and we came back to win the round 15:00-14:52. Next round ended up being close 15:00-14:something game. And well you know how last round went. We are missing 3 players from last seasons final starting lineup JAMAL,kess,Spezza and yet you call us stackers, hoarders and whatever.


PS. Dont take this as personal attack. I'm just not supporting the idea.

[fLaReD]

just let people play with their friends. playing with a roster of randoms doesn't feel nearly as important. i know it's been suggested/tried before but if the problem is players stacking on certain squads can't you just add a per league roster cap or implement restrictions on playtime in order to get the medal?

[Turban]

something like per league restrictions could work, forcing teams to decide which players they want to have on their roster. however implementing / categorizing players seems like a difficult task. we are also most likely bringing back the playtime requirements to be eligible for a medal in the case of your team winning, but that by itself doesn't accomplish much as stacked teams simply can rotate their lineups.

[ogron]

The effort you have put in the past couple of years is amazing. I respect you for that, claus.

I appreciate that.

I still think this is a horrible idea. Several good points have already been mentioned by other players.

That's my point, though. There haven't been any good points. The TWD activity issue will be worked out through bots, these ideas do not = TWDT, which is a 3-league system where you play 3 newbies and the talent is spread over 8 teams and some TWLers don't play and it's a pro-am with a lot of emphasis on newbies.

The NBA has a draft and caps and limits and it's still the premiere basketball league. TWL is still the premiere basing league. Having one super-team, two mediocre teams, and five crappy teams isn't a league, it's a slaughter people on good squads say is a league to give value to the medal they won. There needs to be healthy competition, and it's not even close to that atm.

What we built in dudgeon more than a year ago. What some of the "weaker" squads like Vikings/prayer has built recently and during off-season - All goes down the drain.
We have under 20 players in our roster. It would be under 15 if we removed our inactive IRL friends and loyal long-time members.

You left that Dudgeon core to go to Pandora and win a title the year prior. Let's not act like these are some holy matrimonys and that the majority of the people are mated for life on one squad. You've played on Dudgeon/Thunder/Pandora/LEGO and just about every LB core out there. And under most of the proposals you'd get to play with a lot (if not most) of those players again.

Lol, Prayer has played like 50 bds in a row against LEGO over a month, it's not like they trained for the Olympics for 3 years 14 hours a day and then were told they couldn't participate. And we're planning on having 3 open LB spots for squads like Vikings/Prayer/Fierce to get competitive experience, so I don't see how any of that goes down the drain?

Remember the finals last season? Thunder was 8 seconds away from the victory leading finals 2-0. I died at 14:20-xx:xx and you guys had the flagroom and we came back to win the round 15:00-14:52. Next round ended up being close 15:00-14:something game. And well you know how last round went. We are missing 3 players from last seasons final starting lineup JAMAL,kess,Spezza and yet you call us stackers, hoarders and whatever.

PS. Dont take this as personal attack. I'm just not supporting the idea.

You should be proud of that. The playoffs had a ton of good competition, and Dudgeon/Thunder/Royal/Enemy all had good lines.

I just don't understand how you can't see that this season is NOT going to be like that AT ALL. JAMAL and kess will probably be back there, and you swiped mcvicar, who's like the 2nd best under left in the game. Spezz didn't show most of the season for you, and you benched him in the final round of the Finals, so it's not like you considered him that valuable.

If there were four top-tier squads like that again, we wouldn't be having this conversation. There's one top-tier squad, and the rest of the league is a dumpster fire. It's not Dudgeon's fault, but it's the reality of the league. You're certainly doing nothing to help by maintaining the status quo and threatening to quit if anything changes, however.

[zidane]

lol, no strong team will support this idea. from what ive noticed there just seems to be very little elite basers left in the zone, and about 50% of the ones that are around are all on dudgeon. I really dont care about this at all but theres zero doubt in my mind that lb will be trash and its a fact that twbd has been a complete joke all year.

fyi the best baser of all time no showed last lb finals and cintra was hired as a double agent