-Final- ?

[NaiLed]

Which parts didn't I touch?

Most new people starting out see that most people in pub play using warbirds around the spawn area. They see this and copy it. Very few new players start to go to base - the majority either spawn in warbird or lev as this requires far less sill than basing. As I said before, dueling is easier which is why it is more popular.

if this is true, how do you explain the fact that dueling squads play better in base than basers do in duel?

They don't neccessarily. Just because basing squads don't ever play warbird, doesn't mean they can't get good at it.

why? because you say so? this isnt an argument its a stated opinion with no support.

If you didn't have talent/skill in basing, you would inevitably lose. If you didn't practice and practice organisation in dueling, you would suck.

there isnt a single pure basing squad that can even compete in TWLD. but there are several dueling squads that never base once the entire off season and then decide to get into TWLB and do so easily, and then end up being a decent basing team

Such as...?

good wb and championship caliber wb are two different things.

True. However, being a championship caliber wb doesn't mean that you would be good at basing. You have to practice at basing and warbird to be good at both.

[Escalate]

again, im not saying that WB and Jav take zero organization and practice, and im not saying basing takes zero skill/talent. it was a relative comparison.

the argument you didnt touch is this:

if you have 2000 players that play wb, and you have 500 that play base, and 1 of every 100 players by simple probability has the talent and dedication to be elite at whatever they prefer to play. THEN: there will be 20 elite wbs and 5 elite basers. Therefore the top 16 TWLD squads would contain by probability alone much more talented players than the top 16 TWLB squads. This is what makes it easier for less skilled players to compete in basing, because they are facing weaker competition on average.

[NaiLed]

if you have 2000 players that play wb, and you have 500 that play base, and 1 of every 100 players by simple probability has the talent and dedication to be elite at whatever they prefer to play. THEN: there will be 20 elite wbs and 5 elite basers. Therefore the top 16 TWLD squads would contain by probability alone much more talented players than the top 16 TWLB squads. This is what makes it easier for less skilled players to compete in basing, because they are facing weaker competition on average.

Ok. But things aren't that simple. If you get the top TWLD squad and let them play the top TWLB in basing, you can bet that the TWLB squad will come out top. (Yes, if you did this the other way around so they played warbirds, the TWLD squad would win)

Basing requires more team skill than individual skill, unlike dueling. This is why duelers do relatavely well in ?go base, because the team doesn't work well together because the team players keep changing so individual skill shows more.

[Jason]

I like to fly the yellow ship.

[Epinephrine]

I don't think this arguement is going to go anywhere far.

The fact is you have top basing squads such as Pallies and Disoblige (I call them basing squads because that's what most people think when they think of Diso or Pallies) which are also damn good at warbirds and javs. This can be evidenced by the fact that Diso won TWLJ last season and was a semi-finalist in TWLD, while Pallies was eliminated in the first round in both but by Elusive, the eventual TWLD champion and TWLJ finalist.

Then again you have top dueling/jav squads such as Elusive and Rampage which were able to be very successful in base.

Basing and dueling require different types of skills for sure, but I think in the end they are equivalent.

There isn't much made of the fact that in dueling you too need teamwork, and that in basing you too need skill. Without a skilled terrier, or skilled sharks or even skilled spiders it's going to be very hard to win no matter how good your teamwork is. And no matter how skilled your players are in dueling, if you don't have teamwork you'll get run over. Trust me, I've been on some of the most skilled squads in dueling history and I've definately lost to less skilled squads who had better teamwork enough times to know this is true.

Furthermore I think the basing 'eliteness' of each ship being so hard has been overrated. With a little bit of practice I think the best players are always able to cross over to other ships and do just as well or at least nearly just as well. For sure you'll have Warportal who is just naturally talented at terrier, or have Psymorph who is naturally talented at javs for instance. But the fact remains that the best players are able to cross over.

This requires a bit of examination into why this is. To be really good requires a few things. One is excellent hand eye coordination. You need to know how to dodge, you need to know how to shoot. I think anyone can see this is completely relevant in both types of playing.

Another is intelligence, or at least an inate knowledge of the game. You need to know when to shoot, when to run away, and what positions you should be in during the game. This applies to all leagues. Think about it, a warbird that doesn't play with his team or charges in blindly will surely die. A jav that does their own thing has very little chance if outnumbered. And of course in basing it's quite obvious.

The final thing the best players need is reflexes. I think it's easy to see why this is important in all the leagues.

So seeing these criteria it's not hard to see why good players are able to cross over.

Now let's add in Escalate's probability arguement. Since by the process of the fact that more people play wb/javs in general, there should be a higher absolute amount of good players in those leagues. Add in the fact that good players tend to bunch up, and squads tend to get stacked, you can easily see that the very top wb/jav squads will likely have just a higher absolute amount of top talent than most basing squads. Now since the skills required in both are transferrable, after you get past the learning curve (which dueling->basing and basing->dueling both have to get through), it just turns into a battle of skill, along with some other intangibles such as how much each team wants to win and how good their strategies are which are a function of good coaching and good teamwork in that particular league and usually attributed to practice time. As I said, since there are more teams with more talented players in wb/javs those squads can likely transfer over to basing more easily than basing squads can transfer over to wb/javs.

There are futher arguements. One is that basing is so good that basers don't even want to play wb/jav. While for some basers this is true, I'm sure propotionally there are just as many wb/jav players who feel the same way about basing. Furthermore, last season there were 10 squads in all three leagues I believe. I think that in itself is enought to show that many players and many squads will attempt to do all three because they don't see any real distinction in funness and just like Trench Wars in general.

How about the arguements that you need good terriers and sharks in basing? This adds on with the other arguement that supposedly anyone can play spider, and thus without any specialist ships wb/jav are somehow inferior? Well I've seen time and time again that good wb/jav players who try their hand at terriers or sharks and even javs can get quite good themselves. I can speak from personal experience as someone who had to play shark for Elusive cause no one else wanted to that after a week in ?go base I was more or less always the first or second person picked and picked as a shark. I wouldn't say I was the best shark ever, but I think that after I got over the initial learning curve it was quite easy to adapt my skills from other ships into the shark and play well. I know that last season Vihta became a pretty good jav in his own right after some practice in ?go base, and demonfaze was an excellent backup terrier for our squad.

The last arguement is that while perhaps there is some teamwork involved with javs/wb it is not nearly at the same level that it is at in base. Well you know what? Good players can learn teamwork. Good teams can learn teamwork. It just takes practice. I don't think there's anything inherently different about those who choose to play base that they are somehow inately and inherently superior in teamwork that their teamwork can never be surpassed. In fact I can argue quite nicely that the teamwork required in SVS Pro League is by far at a much higher level than will ever be seen in all of Trench Wars, but I will never discount the possibility of TW players being good there. The fact is basing requires some coordination, but in the end it's just a learned skill. The various things you need to know in basing (cram, lines, don't mine your terrier, when to go to lower base, how to protect the flag) can all be learned quite quickly by a willing team. Would say Value win a TWLB vs Pallies in their first try? Probably not. But would Spastic beat Value in a TWLD in their first try? Not at all. How many tries would both teams have to go through before they would beat the other? What about Syndicate vs. Spastic in both? What would happen then? I think it's not hard to see that these questions can be answered quite clearly just on the skill and talents of the players.

So with all that, it's not hard to see why in general at least in today's Trench Wars, it is easier for jav/wb squads to go to basing and why it's harder for basing squads to go to jav/wb and do good. Is one style of playing inherently better or more skilled than the other? Basing requires a bit more to know, but dueling requires a bit more pure talent. It's comparing apples and oranges and so I don't think this arguement will ever end. Is one style more fun than the other? I personally had more fun in TWLD last season than TWLB, although I do admit TWLB was fun too. It's just a personal taste.

I'll just end it with saying that last season Elusive practied their ass off in TWLD and TWLJ. We rarely ever practiced TWLB after we qualifed for TWL, yet we were just 600 points away from getting into the TWLB finals. I rest my case.

-Epi

[RiP]

Well put epi

[Mayo Inc.]

Pallies are winning everything from now on

[HellzNo!]

escalate is so wrong. everyone knows it goes

JAVS>wbs>basing for skill, stupid.

[Sufficient]

Esc ... my opinion is that jav requires more skill/talent than wb or basing. To me, jav teams show more consistancy in general than dueling teams ... meaning that good teams consistently do well and rarely have bad days while dueling comes next and finally basing.

A big factor why I (as a baser who has dabbled in dueling and javving [I personally find wbs dull but javs quite exciting]) ... is because of RESOLUTION ... to me ... resolution is a huge factor in dueling in general ... specifically wb dueling and a lesser extent to javving. I've played with a 21 in monitor at home and a 15 in monitor at school ... the diff is huge esp in other zones which allow huge 1600 x 1200 res. Of course TW has the restriction ... but comon ... 800x600 and the next step up make a fairly big difference than ppl with the highest res that TW allows ... talent nonwithstanding.

[Escalate]

Originally posted by HellzNo!
escalate is so wrong. everyone knows it goes

JAVS>wbs>basing for skill, stupid.

hmm dunno, but jav and wb are definitely close. theres less luck involved in jav i think but there is also more teamwork involved, so kinda offsetting factors. either way, no need to be a dick hellz.

[Fit of Rage]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
Basing and dueling require different types of skills for sure, but I think in the end they are equivalent.

As do I. Dueling requires a vastly different kind of teamwork. Apples and oranges, if you will.

[blue goat]

oh come on, like basing is hard

any good wb could own in base if they tried and practiced these dorky strategies...cramming, lining?? wtf, whatever... =/

the only ship that takes skill in basing is terrier...but the rest, any good dueler could get good with a lil practice

im not being harsh, thats just my opinion..so dont hate

remember we all started as basers so its not like nobody knows how to do it

how hard is it to repel and tank for your terr...or fire spider bullets at ppl 3 inches away?? get outta here

[HellzNo!]

i wsa joking around, try lightening up and taking that rod out of your ass before you tear your asshole to hell.

[Jason]

Originally posted by blue goat
oh come on, like basing is hard

It's more difficult than most care to admit. Sure, everyone can base, but not everyone can base with others as a cohesive unit. Teamwork doesn't come without practice, and good basing teams practice hard.

any good wb could own in base if they tried and practiced these dorky strategies...cramming, lining?? wtf, whatever... =/

You're just plain wrong with this assumption. You don't see too many decent basebirds floating around, let alone great basebirds. Players like Div Rides and Randedl could definitely tear this statement apart better than I can, but I'm telling you... not just any old Joe Schmoe can be an effective basebird.

the only ship that takes skill in basing is terrier...but the rest, any good dueler could get good with a lil practice

Terrier really isn't about skill, so much as it is about awareness. Terrier is the thinking man's ship.

im not being harsh, thats just my opinion..so dont hate

I'm not hating, just supporting my opinion, which happens to be quite the opposite of yours. :]

remember we all started as basers so its not like nobody knows how to do it

There's a huge difference between knowing how to play the game and being good at playing the game.

how hard is it to repel and tank for your terr...or fire spider bullets at ppl 3 inches away?? get outta here

Coming from someone who's recently sharked quite a bit, repping is a lot more difficult than it looks. You have to take lag into consideration when you're timing your reps. You have to constantly be aware of where your teammates are and be careful not to rep enemy fire into your allies. Now tanking, yes, that's a no-brainer. Meatshielding in a spid doesn't take skill, but it does require you to have the presence of mind to protect your terr, rather than charge off at the enemy. And as for firing spider bullets at people three inches away, go watch an intense flag room battle between two good teams. There's a whole lot of dodging and ducking and positioning going on. Not everyone just unloads a stream of bullets in the general direction of the enemy. Good spiders have patience and will fire a few shots, move around, fire a few more and so on.

In conclusion, I think you're too far removed from basing, and that's why your assumptions were a bit blind. That's my $0.02.

[Cig Smoke]

To be a basic baser Blue goat is rite, 3 outa 4 decent duelers can become a basic baser with just a few days of practice, with the exception to terr/jav. I mean if u want to become a great baser like so many out there u gotta practice it more and more then u do dueling, spend all day in .?go base like many guys do who are considered the "basing" kings nowday. But like someone said earlier u put an elusive/rampage/-f- squad who are basicaly full out dueling give them some practice in basing and add a terr and they can compete with almost anyone, but also like said earlier in the post i also agree w/ the theory that in a year or 2 the winners of TWLB will be the ppl like spastic who full out base and nothing else. The squads like diso/pallies will still make playoffs but its bound to take toll on them eventualy playing 3 leagues and having to stay up to par in all 3, only so many roster spots and its hard to recruit guys who are good in only TWLJ bc of the roster limit.