TSLB Matchmaking Issues

[Major Crisis]

There's 2 conflicting ideas here so we need to decide on what this league will be about.

1. Is the point of the league to create the most fun games possible? (highest skill level players available)

2. OR is the point of the league to be inclusive and include all players in all skill levels?

In basing special ships are much more crucial to have a successful competitive game. That's what having a reliable terrier like Ogron play as opposed to FISHY!!!!! is important. The way it seems to be set up is it puts bad players in spider, which is OK for me as long as the other team has a shitter as well.

BUT I do agree that is not right that players want to play base and get consistently benched.

Meh.. Last night Ogron was just toying around with Bellflowers. Ogron is like the only terr left who is taking this league seriously.
Trasher and Dreamwin are currently battling for #2 without even terring all games.. That says enough I think.

But there is nothing wrong with letting people like Bellflowers and Henry Saari (love you) terr against each other. Why do people have to play the same ship over and over again? Just like Attacks stated before, I liked sharking but he gets no chance, Porkjet wanted to try spidding more but he gets no chance either cuz he gets put into shark all the time.

I dont think highest skill level players in automatically means more fun games. Last night the game Ogron vs Bellflowers was actually nice to play in general. And there were only 3 'top' basers playing. It shouldnt be like that if you are top player in shark/terr that you automatically play. Neither if you are like me the second 'terr' in the database atm. I thought the league was made for everyone to join in. Yet in base we are making it hard for 'newbs' to join in or let people learn a new ship.

[afghan]

With the same people being benched I think we should move to whoever first signups by using !playing are the first to play, and not !open before all games have finished. Shouldnt be the same best players, I would ask those who have played 3 games in a row make way for people who keep benching so that they get a game in the meantime

It's not really an option for people to "make way" for people who keep benching. You don't know if you will get benched or not so it's not worth it to not type !playing. Also, if someone has been getting spots over a consistent benched person, they would have to be even skill in order to give up their spot.

[Omega Red]

There's 2 conflicting ideas here so we need to decide on what this league will be about.

1. Is the point of the league to create the most fun games possible? (highest skill level players available)

2. OR is the point of the league to be inclusive and include all players in all skill levels?

In basing special ships are much more crucial to have a successful competitive game. That's what having a reliable terrier like Ogron play as opposed to FISHY!!!!! is important. The way it seems to be set up is it puts bad players in spider, which is OK for me as long as the other team has a shitter as well.

BUT I do agree that is not right that players want to play base and get consistently benched.

[Major Crisis]

With the same people being benched I think we should move to whoever first signups by using !playing are the first to play, and not !open before all games have finished. Shouldnt be the same best players, I would ask those who have played 3 games in a row make way for people who keep benching so that they get a game in the meantime

The problem is with the current matchmaking, that the highest rated terr will get picked first, just like the sharks. So that means Ogron will play 100% sure if he !plays. Just like Zidane, porkjet and so on. I am playing all the time in base, because the lacks of "terrs" that are assigned. It's no surprise that its always non basers or the 'worse' spiders that are on the bench. The system starts making teams from top ratings to lower ratings. I have played out of my 8 basing games, like 7 times against Ogron. When Zidane and I both signed up, we always ended up on the same team. This to balance the rating difference between me and Ogron.

[Rab]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this. You can't think of drafting and benching as separate. The goal when drafting is to make balanced teams, e.g. in basing, 4 teams of 8 is a common goal.

If cripple plays, you might need to put spezza or turban on the opponent's team.
If pressure plays, you might need to put ogron on the opponent's team.
If zidane plays, you might need to put porkjet on the opponent's team.

It's the greater good to use those players to create balance than it is to bench them.

I'm going to share my drafting work with you all, it's not really a secret, anyone interested can have a play with it. Note the ratings are not the live ratings, just some I made up so I'd have something to test with.

ZIP download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9PJjIKfrxUEUG5wZ0F0dG9YSE0/view?usp=sharing

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Download the TSL Drafting zip file I shared with you on google drive.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]In the folder TSL Drafting\WinFormsUI\bin\Debug[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Ratings.csv is the ratings file I made for testing with, it's based on twdtb ratings, I know it's changed since then, but it's good enough to demonstrate the draft.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]WinFormsUI.exe is the drafting program, you can run it and it'll give you a UI with a button. Every time you press the button it'll run 2 drafts with a random 32 players from the csv, 1 just how the bot currently does it (based on overall rating), and 1 with my new drafting logic. It'll output this in...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Results.html shows the results of both drafts. Note that my draft has colors - and these mean the players were intentionally drafted to play those ships.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Run it a few times and see some example results, it's fun :)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]If you want to view the drafting code, it's in [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]TSL Drafting\DraftLibrary\Algorithms [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Snake.cs[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]A summary of what I implemented:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri](It's still a snake draft - like twdt - but mimicking a captain's decision making.)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]1. Identify the opposing team[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]2. Get a list of players remaining[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]3. Shortlist some sharks[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]4. Shortlist some terrs[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]5. Shortlist some spids[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Shortlisting:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- Find players rated x or above[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- x = (10 - Round) [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri](e.g. round 1 find those 9* or above, round 2 find those 8* or above..)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]6. Work out how many turns until my next pick, and if I even have one at all.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]7. From the three shortlists, narrow it down to SOLID PICKS.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Solid Picks (Shark 1st)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- Don't pick more than 2 sharks[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there are no sharks on the shortlist, then there are no solid shark picks.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If the opponent has more or equal sharks to us...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- OR.. there are less sharks on the shortlist than turns until our next pick...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- THEN.. get the highest rated shark on the shortlist and put them on the solid picks list.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Solid Picks (Terr 2nd)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- Don't pick more than 1 terr[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there are no terrs on the shortlist, then there are no solid terr picks.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If the opponent has more or equal terrs to us...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- OR.. there are less terrs on the shortlist than turns until our next pick...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- THEN.. get the highest rated terr on the shortlist and put them on the solid picks list.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Solid Picks (Spid 3rd)[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- Don't pick more than 5 spids[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there are no spids on the shortlist, then there are no solid spid picks.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If the opponent has more or equal spids to us...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- OR... there are less spids on the shortlist than turns until our next pick...[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- THEN.. get the highest rated spid on the shortlist and put them on the solid picks list.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Key points:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- it responds to what the opponent does[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- but it won't blindly add rab in shark if it can have cripple in spid[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- it'll not let solid picks get sniped by other teams.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]so... [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]The Solid Picks list now contains:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]0-1 Sharks[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]0-1 Terrs[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]0-1 Spids[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]8. Narrow down the solid picks list to the 1 player we're going to pick.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there's only one solid pick, pick them[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there's more, pick the one highest rated in the ship we want them for[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]- If there's none [fall back] to picking the highest overall rated player available.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]9. Repeat until everyone is picked. 
[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Attacks]

With the same people being benched I think we should move to whoever first signups by using !playing are the first to play, and not !open before all games have finished. Shouldnt be the same best players, I would ask those who have played 3 games in a row make way for people who keep benching so that they get a game in the meantime

[Rab]

Essential things we need for this league to succeed:
- get the bot logging the scores to the database automatically
- build some web page to display the scoreboards
- fix the TSLB drafting and associated ratings

It's a strategic weakness that without Ogron manually processing score boxes there would be no league.

It's a strategic weakness that all development depends on qan.
For example, we have done some things in bot code which strictly speaking don't need to be.
- register as playing
- draft those players into teams
This stuff could have been done by a website instead. Meaning any web developer could have done it.

We should review our zone development strategy, doing things without touching bots where possible, such that more devs can be involved.

[Henry Saari]

It's not only TSLB that has the same people benching over and over.
In the first weeks I saw in javs the same people getting benched as well. While people like Henry Saari has played all games they could (I only got benched once as well though). No one likes to bench... But when you have double of the game as most people, the bot should bench you more often. That's for two reasons, give others the chance to play and reach the 20 games quota. But also because someone with 50 games has a better oppurtinity to get 20 top ranked games than someone who only played 25 games.

And about the even teams. I doubt the bot will ever succeed in it. It's not a problem imo if you switch around in the teams to make it more even. Last weekend we had 7 people on our team who could easily shark, while the opponent only had one shark. But that team was stacked with spids, so they won it easily. I think if one of the sharks switched with one of the spids it would have been more even.

If we are looking into limiting my playing time, then we need to be looking into limiting playing time of everybody else as well to balance it out. If we go down this road I guess we could be lowering the amount of games per day per person to lets say 2 and no extra rounds for players who've already played 2 games that day - less games, less TSL, less activity. My only intention is to have fun and play, and host 6 hours every night to be subject to stories like this.

Above is not about to happen most likely but just to jog your thoughts a bit. In reality I keep trying to get even number signed up in order to ensure nobody gets benched. In javs and wb this is easier than in basing where there's often odd amount of players - enough for 1 game of 8vs8 with 6-8 subs but not enough to do 2 games of 7vs7 - we've tried 6s but as we all remember that did not go well and I do believe our community prefers 8vs8 over two games of 6s where the chances of having unbalanced teams is higher depending how many and what level players are online (4 teams of 6's required 8 sharks, 4 terrs etc). Obviously if we can make the bot weed out players who've played too much that's alright but in general it may bring down the interest for those who play a lot or are online a lot - for example if I know I will be excluded from league because I've played too much it does not make me show up anymore - why bother? Punishing players for playing and being active is not ideal at all.

Also, if we start limiting players from playing because they have too many games that also means limiting terriers and sharks playing time as some of them have high amount of games too. I wonder do we have enough players to cover those spots if we do this and will the games be even? Or are you imagining this would be only a limit for spiders?

[Jones]

basers are good at killing basing

[Omega Red]

I havent seen anyone talk shit to Tomator though... Towards Whitesox yea, but that guy was seriously a troll. All he did in basing was touching walls and spam "SHARKS REP FOR ME"... Like really? We even gave him tips, but he just ignored it and went on with "I will listen as soon as sharks rep only for me"..

This is funny as hell, can we un ban whitesox? Lol

Tomator has had bad games but you can tell he tries his best. He's had some decent games as well.

[Major Crisis]

+1 zidane is one of the worst for this

I can only laugh about zidane. Everytime I play with him he rages that I can't play either ship in base... Yet I mvp the game.. ^.^
After the game we could even laugh about it together. I started to enjoy shittalk actually. But I can imagine like Attacks said, that newer players would quit cuz of it. I havent seen anyone talk shit to Tomator though... Towards Whitesox yea, but that guy was seriously a troll. All he did in basing was touching walls and spam "SHARKS REP FOR ME"... Like really? We even gave him tips, but he just ignored it and went on with "I will listen as soon as sharks rep only for me"..

[Attacks]

The only two times i raged in tsl so far, was due to whitesox sabotaging a basing game on purpose and jessup's refuse to do anything in a jav when on 5 deaths, while me and the other guy had 1/2 deaths left. If i see someone playing exclusively for the rec, im gonna call them out 100% of the times.

I do not agree with you thix, regarding subbing people out(unless its a clear sabotage job). There is a ladder for some reason. The best players will be on top, the worst will be on the bottom. We as vets should try to encourage newbies to try their best, even if they arent doing that well. I also think its the vets jobs to carry low rating players. As long the teams are even, i personally dont mind having bad players around me at all.

Ah I wasn't aware that whitesox been sabotaging games then apoligies to omega red, people like that do need to be told to fuck off. But their are people being trashed who are giving 100%

[kess]

The only two times i raged in tsl so far, was due to whitesox sabotaging a basing game on purpose and jessup's refuse to do anything in a jav when on 5 deaths, while me and the other guy had 1/2 deaths left. If i see someone playing exclusively for the rec, im gonna call them out 100% of the times.

I do not agree with you thix, regarding subbing people out(unless its a clear sabotage job). There is a ladder for some reason. The best players will be on top, the worst will be on the bottom. We as vets should try to encourage newbies to try their best, even if they arent doing that well. I also think its the vets jobs to carry low rating players. As long the teams are even, i personally dont mind having bad players around me at all.

[Attacks]

I will stop raging at incompetent players when they start putting in some effort to actually try to win. But it's hard when some players are openly sabotaging a game on purpose and not due to their lack of skills.

Everybody has been on the tail-end of abuse, it's part of the game. If you want a game where there's 0 accountability go play minecraft or something casual

I have not seen anyone not try their best so far, maybe we have been in different games than you, the way I see it is if we have the mentality people need to put up with abuse then your have the same x number of players playing the exact same ships and nobody new will bother playing, if you think its acceptable as a grown adult to be talked down to because I have taken the courage to try something new then this really isn't the game for me. I never said it wouldn't be frustrating, sometimes I really want to scream at people, last night I wanted to yell at Henry saari for not rushing jessup on 5 deaths when I was on 9, but I didnt.

You were quite fortunate that you had practice in Eg and other zones before you hit tws, i honestly tremble at the prospect of fresh blood playing this game in this hostile climate

[Omega Red]

I will stop raging at incompetent players when they start putting in some effort to actually try to win. But it's hard when some players are openly sabotaging a game on purpose and not due to their lack of skills.

Everybody has been on the tail-end of abuse, it's part of the game. If you want a game where there's 0 accountability go play minecraft or something casual