WB/Jav/Basing Cup For Dummies

[Crazy Canockout]

[QUOTE=ogron;n1359067]

[B]Final Thoughts[/B]

To me, it seems like too many pure drafts in a row, and since we're not running TWL for another 6 months, having a league where you can actually team up with people (albeit with a star cap and a draft element) seemed like a good middleground. But it's whatever people want it to be, I'm just trying to help the zone. I heard multiple players talking about TSL so I stepped in and announced Cup.

If people would prefer another pure draft I'm happy to run it like Basing Cup 2021... I just thought it would be cool to try a hybrid between TWL and TWDT. If strong players don't step up and participate in the process, then obviously it will not work, and you'll be left with either a 4th consecutive pure draft league, or just nothing, and the zone can die until September when TWDT and TWL bring players back.

I'm fine with whatever.[/QUOTE]

I think you should see this through. You've obviously put some thought and effort into this, so I think it is in our interest to see what comes of it. Perhaps there will be some hiccups, but at the end of the day it's something new, and it might even spark some creativity/imagination in the community for future tournament ideas. You can always iron it out going forward for future iterations as well. I'm all for this, keep it goin' buddy!

[Jessup]

Paladen never submitted anything here. I submitted a core for a yet unnamed team and it was rejected. I'll see if I can make a team but if I can't just put me in the rigged player draft package.

[Zeebu]

also remember that this is an opt out league. there are people out there that likely dont even know they might find themselves on a team in a summer league.

that being said, its supposed to be a casual league. i dont have an issue with letting the paladen core draft. the only thing that should explicitly stated is that there will be no repercussion to any player that doesnt want to play. if i get drafted to a team in each league but i decide i only want to base and wb, that should be perfectly fine. i am in no way obligated to show up to the team that drafted me for javs if i dont wish to play it.

as long as we dont penalize a player later on in the leagues that are taken seriously like twdt and twl, who cares what people do?

[afghan]

[QUOTE=Ekk0;n1359080]We need more guidelines and a star cap estimates for rookie lines and elite cores. Right now it seems like everything is very ogrons opinion based. I really think we need rating based specifications in order to get some more team submissions going

As per current wb cores:

1. Rage -- RaCka(10*), Lockdown(10*), Turban(9.5*) = 29.5 wb star core
2. Dark -- Siaxis(9*), zidane(8*), ogron (8.5*) = 25.5 wb star core (average of 8.5 stars per player)
3. Phoenix -- saiyan(10*) vys (10*) , *UNKNOWN* = 20* so far with 2 players, they can have anyone as their third as they only need 5.5 stars to hit 25.5 stars form an elite core of 3.

If you set out the [B]guideline[/B] that a 3 man elite core for jav/wb needs to be a minimum of 25.5 stars at an average of 8.5 stars per player that automatically would put the Paladen core into a non drafting setup:

5. Paladen -- Jessup(7.5), J-B-Inc(7.5), Pawner(7) = 22 star core.

As they do not meet the minimum threshold of 25.5 stars to be considered an elite core they will not be considered as a 3 person elite core but they are welcome to put together a non-draft line.

Now as I said what we REALLY NEED at this point to get the ball rolling on core submissions is clear guidelines and instructions on how we can begin to submit non-draft lines. I've gathered you would allow non draft lines to form with 7-8 players, that's a start, but what is the highest level of talent we can allow on these non-draft lines?

You said the star cap for wb/jav is likely gonna be the strongest team + 16 *'s

For wb currently its 29.5* (racka, lockdown, turban) + 16*s for a star cap of 45.5.

If we made the star cap for a non-draft line in wb 42.5, that averages out to 8.5 stars per player slot of a 5 man team and is still 3 stars below the elite core draft cap of 45.5 and can account for the advantage of entering the cup with a fully formed starting line with a few sub options as you suggested a roster of 7-8 players.

There are tons of mid rated players like Banks who would only want to be drafted by an elite core and win with them because they don't have confidence in their abilities to pull an upset vs strong players and want to be carried to a title.

but there are also a lot of mid rated players who would want to play with players of equal skill that they have synergy with and still be able to put together a line that can pull an upset.

I think these cups have the potential to have more than 4 competitive teams per division.. if you give the community some more guidelines, the teams will come.[/QUOTE]

Simplest solution is if you can’t hit the max stars with adding 10 star players to your core than you don’t get to draft. Paladin can’t hit 45 so no draft.

[Ekk0]

We need more guidelines and a star cap estimates for rookie lines and elite cores. Right now it seems like everything is very ogrons opinion based. I really think we need rating based specifications in order to get some more team submissions going

As per current wb cores:

1. Rage -- RaCka(10*), Lockdown(10*), Turban(9.5*) = 29.5 wb star core
2. Dark -- Siaxis(9*), zidane(8*), ogron (8.5*) = 25.5 wb star core (average of 8.5 stars per player)
3. Phoenix -- saiyan(10*) vys (10*) , *UNKNOWN* = 20* so far with 2 players, they can have anyone as their third as they only need 5.5 stars to hit 25.5 stars form an elite core of 3.

If you set out the [B]guideline[/B] that a 3 man elite core for jav/wb needs to be a minimum of 25.5 stars at an average of 8.5 stars per player that automatically would put the Paladen core into a non drafting setup:

5. Paladen -- Jessup(7.5), J-B-Inc(7.5), Pawner(7) = 22 star core.

As they do not meet the minimum threshold of 25.5 stars to be considered an elite core they will not be considered as a 3 person elite core but they are welcome to put together a non-draft line.

Now as I said what we REALLY NEED at this point to get the ball rolling on core submissions is clear guidelines and instructions on how we can begin to submit non-draft lines. I've gathered you would allow non draft lines to form with 7-8 players, that's a start, but what is the highest level of talent we can allow on these non-draft lines?

You said the star cap for wb/jav is likely gonna be the strongest team + 16 *'s

For wb currently its 29.5* (racka, lockdown, turban) + 16*s for a star cap of 45.5.

If we made the star cap for a non-draft line in wb 42.5, that averages out to 8.5 stars per player slot of a 5 man team and is still 3 stars below the elite core draft cap of 45.5 and can account for the advantage of entering the cup with a fully formed starting line with a few sub options as you suggested a roster of 7-8 players.

There are tons of mid rated players who would only want to be drafted by an elite core and win with them because they don't have confidence in their abilities to pull an upset vs strong players and want to be carried to a title.

but there are also a lot of mid rated players who would want to play with players of equal skill that they have synergy with and still be able to put together a line that can pull an upset.

I think these cups have the potential to have more than 4 competitive teams per division.. if you give the community some more guidelines, the teams will come.

[Vehicle]

[USER="3589"]Jessup[/USER] You cannot force people to play with you and the odds are slim that skilled warbirds suddenly will want to when you've been drafted close to last and/or benched the past few years.

Want to compete for the win? Get a FULL team together and enter.

If the three of you are so solid, find like 4 other friends and make it happen. You can sign up as a team, you just can't sign up as a horribly disadvantaged team and then expect people to want to play for you. You're asking for something that cannot be done. The human condition cannot be changed. History cannot be rewritten.

The best people are captains because they're the people that make teams competitive and with whom people want to play with. They also usually have recent capping experience and have demonstrated a level of stability that earns them the spot. You do not currently have those features.
.
This has to be the most accommodating way to set up a league and the fact that you're still finding something to take issue with is very telling.

[Grasps]

I was going to criticize jessup but realized it's not going to solve anything and fall on deaf ears. So instead, I'd rather say thank you Ogron and everyone else creating yet another league to bolster activity. Really appreciate that TWD especially is being considered in these leagues and keeping the zone active. You guys rock. Keep up the good work!

[cubone]

[QUOTE=Jessup;n1359072]

I said a 5 wb core .. please read before you type. [/QUOTE]

Even better. Find 2 people who willingly want to join you that could win a title.



Has there been a league in the past 10 years that you haven't whined and complained about? You whine about not getting played in every single TWDT. You whined about TSL ratings. You complain about elim scores. I mean, you whined about the forum Mafia game. Literally all you do is whine about every single league and event because they somehow discriminate against you and people are being mean to you. You sit around and just look for things to complain about. It should hardly be a surprise that people don't want to play for a captain as insufferable as you.

[Jessup]

[QUOTE=cubone;n1359071]

You don't understand that 2 draft picks don't exist that could lead you/pawner/j-b to a wb title?

[/QUOTE]

I said a 5 wb core .. please read before you type.

[cubone]

[QUOTE=Jessup;n1359070]I also don't understand why the BEST cores are the only ones who then get to draft either? I really do not follow the logic behind this when it comes to fairness creating even teams. Why squash certain willing participants and on top of it not allow them to get into the draft pool of players?

How about this, Let people like us recruit a 5 WB core team and get at least a few draft picks. That imo is a fair compromise. [/QUOTE]

You don't understand that 2 draft picks don't exist that could lead you/pawner/j-b to a wb title?

[Jessup]

Well.. I'll just say I disagree with any justification to nullify the 3 of us from making a core in this WB Cup. We have all played for 20 to 22 years each and done multiple leagues and been captains in the zone for most of that time. I've captained TWL squads into quarterfinals multiple times and been a twdt cap and pawner and j-b both are nothing to sneeze at with their resumes either as far as this game in general is concerned. We all certainly know who has skill and would wager to say could make a wb line in a draft as good as anyone if given a fair chance.

I also don't understand why the BEST cores are the only ones who then get to draft either? I really do not follow the logic behind this when it comes to fairness creating even teams. Why squash certain willing participants and on top of it not allow them to get into the draft pool of players?

How about this, Let people like us recruit a 5 WB core team and get at least a few draft picks. That imo is a fair compromise.

[ogron]

[QUOTE=saiyan;n1359065]Seeing how slow signups are going, consider taking a risk and allow the 3 stooges to draft. You might see a bunch of cores quickly submitted by players trying to avoid playing with them at all costs 🤣[/QUOTE]

LOL

Signups are a bit slow, but my understanding is you/vys, Dak/Tripin, Rough/Thix, and Dreamwin are all prepping to submit cores, so that is a positive development.

I think we really only need 4 teams per league to be successful, as Basing Cup 2020 was quite good -- although the more, the better.

If there aren't enough submissions, we also have the [B]nuclear option of running WB Cup, Jav Cup, and Basing Cup as traditional uncapped drafts[/B] (like Basing Cup 2020 and 2021).

[quote=Dreamwin]I think you should make a forum poll with simple yes or no alternatives. Ogron surely could make a special rule just this time.

Question: Do you want to play wb cup with Jessup, pawner, jb-inc?

Allow everyone who votes "yes" to join Jessup's team. Transparent and democratic.[/quote]

I love it!

Again, if people are fine with Jessup, Pawner, and J-B-Inc being a WB Cup Core and drafting or whatever, I'm all for it. But since I'm (sadly) in charge, I have to make a judgment call about who other warbirds will accept as their captain and if they'll be competitive, so until I get feedback from the zone on saying "HEY! LET JESSUP'S CORE DRAFT!", it's a unilateral decision that I'm stuck making.

[quote=zidane]I still think your core doesn't need to be stacked though, there is a star cap so your 4th/5th can be a lot stronger with more balanced lines. Same situation with base.[/quote]

Agreed, although starting with 7/7/7 and getting to 45* seems difficult in WB... realistically you'll at best get like 10/9/9 for a 10/9/9/7/7 line of 42*..... and be playing vs. 45* lines... that seems like too big of a gulf.

[B]Final Thoughts[/B]

To me, it seems like too many pure drafts in a row, and since we're not running TWL for another 6 months, having a league where you can actually team up with people (albeit with a star cap and a draft element) seemed like a good middleground. But it's whatever people want it to be, I'm just trying to help the zone. I heard multiple players talking about TSL so I stepped in and announced Cup.

If people would prefer another pure draft I'm happy to run it like Basing Cup 2021... I just thought it would be cool to try a hybrid between TWL and TWDT. If strong players don't step up and participate in the process, then obviously it will not work, and you'll be left with either a 4th consecutive pure draft league, or just nothing, and the zone can die until September when TWDT and TWL bring players back.

I'm fine with whatever.

[ogron]

[QUOTE=Jessup;n1359061]For the record, if people refuse to play for a specific Captain or Core before a season even begins they exemplify everything wrong with this zone currently. It's a lame defense to exclude people from being allowed to Cap draft leagues and makes room for league abuse and even normalizes it.[/QUOTE]

Refusing to play for a captain is an egregious act in TWDT, and results in a multi-season ban.

However, this is [B][I]because [/I][/B]the Head TWDT Op has selected the[I][B] best available captains[/B][/I]. The majority of caps have some combination of experience, skill, and reputation. It's not a free-for-all, and candidates are frequently rejected.

When Steadman asked to cap Basing Cup, I spent 5 days deliberating, and spoke to a dozen well-respected players whom I trust. The consensus was he would make a much better captain than player. I weighed a long history of toxicity and quitting (along with a few dissenters who PM'd me saying not to cap him) against 8 straight months of positive, normal behavior in-game and completing two consecutive TWDTs, along with constructive 1-on-1 conversations and strong support for his captaincy by a lot of elite players, on top of the fact he's an great underspider and has a good eye for talent.

I made the decision to cap him, and he won the league.

[quote=Jessup]Choosing people by a "cool" factor is a very limiting approach and until a Captain or Core give players a reason [B]during[/B] the season to have a beef over leadership management it is well.. going to limit the fair use of the Trench Wars community at large.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with being cool. The prime consideration (for me, at least) is the player experience under 'x' captain. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The main question I ask are:

1) How many captain spots are there
2) Which captains are going to provide the best possible experience to the 10-25 players under their care?

[COLOR=#e74c3c][U]You're not entitled to captain[/U][/COLOR]. The spots should go to the players who are the most likely to succeed in building a competitive team (and not be too unbearable.) People were not happy on TJ Hazuki's Basing Cup team, despite him being one of the most popular and kindest players in the zone. Conversely, Dreamwin and a2m had good seasons playing for someone they despise (and destroyed their TWL team by refusing to play) in Steadman because he drafted a strong team and ran it well.

That doesn't mean league ops don't make mistakes (I probably should have captained MVP over a certain someone last season), but every effort should be made to at least attempt to select the best candidates.

The cores are an[I][B] added obstacle[/B][/I] to your candidacy as a 7* warbird. In TWDT, only 1 captain per team means most of the talent is in the draft. With cores, a large chunk of the talent will be in the cores, and it would be more difficult to build a competitive team.

And that's even before the consideration of your captaining abilities.

[quote=Jessup] I suggest we allow 7 and 8 stars only to captain say next TWDT. [/quote]

This isn't a bad idea, and it has been discussed a few times before. I'm open to it, but I haven't run TWDT in 6 years and it's not up to me.

[quote=Jessup]The musical chairs a small click of people keep doing over and over has gone on for years and it's getting quite stale.[/quote]

I strongly disagree.

The crop of elite captains in TWDT the past few years has been exceptional, the competition fierce, and participation high. These are some of the best leagues ever run, and both the captains and league operators have done a fantastic job.

While low-star caps only would be a fun change of pace and interesting, there is absolutely zero issue with the best players in the league captaining draft and putting together strong teams. Winning TWDT is harder than ever.

You having issues with getting playtime due to your playstyle and personality does not represent the experiences of the majority of the zone in TWDT.

[B]Ultimately, it's your job to convince elite warbirds in the zone to let you captain a [COLOR=#3498db][I]drafting [/I][/COLOR]WB Cup core, not mine to force them to play for you. [/B]

You're of course welcome to play WB Cup as a non-drafting, low-star team with your friends, or be drafted by a core. But I have no intention of making Jessup, J-B-Inc, and Pawner a Core in WB Cup that will draft, unless there is significant support from the 9*s and 10*s you'll need to be competitive. If those players are willing to be subjected to the whims of you and Pawner, great, I'll add you.

[saiyan]

Seeing how slow signups are going, consider taking a risk and allow the 3 stooges to draft. You might see a bunch of cores quickly submitted by players trying to avoid playing with them at all costs 🤣

[zidane]

I think there's got to be a balance. I think it's good to allow Jess the chance to play with a set team, but drafting is a bit extreme because there's very little chance they would be able to get a team that will be close to say Lock/Turb/Rack's star wise.

I still think your core doesn't need to be stacked though, there is a star cap so your 4th/5th can be a lot stronger with more balanced lines. Same situation with base.