The Problem With TWDT

[Voth]

This zone (and subsequently, this game) is slowly dying, that's no secret. Any chance we have to bring more competition to the zone is through the development of new players. The draft tournament has potential to bring new players and veterans together to play together. The veterans are the mentors, and the new players learn from them, play alongside them, and even create friendships with them.

That's ideally how a draft tournament should be. The draft tournament is an EXCELLENT league, but it needs to be handled with more care for the underlying purposes of the league.

First of all, the fact that a team only needs to play one 6* per game is ridiculous. Many people who are more than capable in their league are being used as the "low star" in games. For example, I have absolutely no problems with being rated a 6 in basing, which is my main league, but the fact that my squad can use me as the low star in all basing matches is laughable. Additionally, any free agent picked up for 4/4/4 can be used as a low vp in any league, and this is happening for many free agent vets. Furthermore, I see virtually no new players even signed up for this league. Was it marketed wrong? Did we have a zone running periodically for pub players to see? Did we have a bot PM'ing all players as they entered the zone to sign up? Did we INFORM new players of the possibilities that come with a draft league?

If we want this league to start being successful, we need to stop thinking of it as a way for our current players to get picked onto a team of randoms and play. We need to think of it more as veterans being randomized onto teams with new players and them working together in matches to bring more new players into the competitive aspect of TW.

Extreme Games' draft league is very successful in this way. Personally, I started playing EG in early 2006, and I was drawn into their draft league, where I was taken under the wing of a veteran player who, after the league, invited me to his squad and trained me up. Many TW players will confirm that they have been drawn into EG flagging through the draft league. Just to name a few: MHz, a2m, Cig Smoke, Endangered. Finding a newbie with potential is a top priority for EG squads, because they can train them up and then that player is loyal to them. You don't see this with the TW players... it's incredibly hard to break into the competition here, and that is just wrong.

I guess I have sort of deviated from TWDT to a zone-wide problem but I just thought this should be said.

[Salubrious]

Yeah this was already an issue last season and based on the re-vamped ratings done prior to the start of this season, was already going to be an even bigger problem this season. If I remember correctly, 6* = played 1 or 2 twl games. I don't think teams suffer too much from being "forced" into playing someone with twl experience.

I think the main issue is there are too many people signed up and not enough squads. Setting aside completely newbies, there are still a bunch of solid players left on the free agent list who weren't drafted. I think the EG draft league is so much more successful because their smaller population actually forces captains to pick up and play newer players just to fill out their teams. When was the last time you saw a TWL squad even go into pub to recruit a newbie even just for TWD? (not even penetrate does this anymore)

So maybe in a year or two when tw dies some more, TWDT will become more newbie friendly :turned:

[Draft]

Agreed, my 6 * players have been playing before 2000 lol

next season:
two 6 *'s in twdtj/twdtd
three 6 *'s in twdtb

Advertisements: Do it through PMs when people are entering the zone, most public players ignore forums, twd, almost everything outside of public chat in public arenas and the robobot in the arena

I've introduced at least 4 of my friends to this game

3/4 of them didn't know how to change arena, pm, squadpm, squadjoin, and of course didnt know what twl was (which is tw's main attraction) etc after playing for like 2 days until I told them irl what to do lol

[Burnt]

The draft tournament has potential to bring new players and veterans together to play together. The veterans are the mentors, and the new players learn from them, play alongside them, and even create friendships with them.

It doesn't have the potential to do this because it's only played 1 game a week with no practices during the week. Bringing in and training new players can be done in TWD but not in TWDT.

[Voth]

lol? Who says you can't practice during the week? Who says you and your team can't get together and play wbduel, javduel, or base as a team? Who says you can't practice fundamentals in private arenas as a team? Who says you can't hold scheduled scrimmages against other TWDT teams during the week by starting up wbduel2, javduel2, base2?

In EG, during the Draft League, the normal squads are on the back-burner for the most part because everyone is so caught up in the success of their EGDL team. EGDL teams play pickups with eachother all week long, play as a team in pubs all week long, hold practices during the week to practice fundamentals, and even show up at least an hour early to matches for a practice.

I'm surprised you would say something so completely wrong, Burnt.

[Burnt]

lol? Who says you can't practice during the week?

Cause everyone is playing with their TWD squads during the week.

the normal squads are on the back-burner for the most part because everyone is so caught up in the success of their EGDL team.

EG doesn't have something like TWD though. TWD is the backbone of Trench Wars and the only way to get people to focus on their TWDT squads would be make TWD a draft league as well. This would ruin TWD as we know it because players like to be on squad with their friends and most don't want to be on 2 or 3 league squads. I would love for my TWDT to all join the same TWD squad but too many are loyal to their TWD squads and they're also in the middle for qualifying for TWL. Anyways I don't even have any real newbies on my roster for TWDT because there were more than enough vets to fill my roster with.

Many TW players will confirm that they have been drawn into EG flagging through the draft league. Just to name a few: MHz, a2m, Cig Smoke, Endangered. Finding a newbie with potential is a top priority for EG squads, because they can train them up and then that player is loyal to them. You don't see this with the TW players... it's incredibly hard to break into the competition here, and that is just wrong.

Plenty of players from other zones have been drawn into TW through TWD, that's why we don't really need something like TWDT to do that.

[Voth]

So from that post, I gathered that you don't think TWDT is a good way to bring new players to a competitive level. I still don't see a good reason why. The rest of it is BS - a TWDT team can throw in a practice here and there in javduel, wbduel, or base. People aren't tied up 24/7 with TWD.

[Black Mage]

I think one of the biggest problems is the Free Agents who qualify as 6* or below. I proposed a new system that could be implemented next year wherein all free agents are rated like the draftees, and the bidding for them starts at their rating. The draft should be the backbone of adding quality players to your team, not free agency.

The problem with adding more requirements of whom you can and cannot play per week is the risk of not enough people showing up (ala PUMA this last week) and/or diluting the quality of play/competitiveness.

[Summa]

Who says you can't hold scheduled scrimmages against other TWDT teams

I offered....no one seemed interesting...hell I have even been open entirely to suggestion this entire time encouraging people to criticize the league, to offer suggestions, and outside of a select few people I have gotten jack shit for feedback. So how am I supposed to make this league more available and friendly without some player feedback? I mean the entire reason that izor and wark were going to run this league this season was because I didn't have a plethora of hours to sink into it, and I still don't. I do the best I can and people seem to enjoy it. Next season it will hopefully all be fixed if Ardour is able to finish the TWLM style rating system and new site, but that's still an unknown. Hell there is a strong possibility that I will retire by next summer.

Anyways here's the two main problems with why fledgling players don't get to be added. 1) caps want to win. Flat out, they want to win and they want the best they can get on their roster. If that means filling a few roster spots with fodder who will never play to maximize their cap availability then so be it. They aren't going to play the crappy players because they don't have the same intentions that I do. I establish a set of rules that encourages the development of players, whether it be vets developing skills in a new league or a league they are long since removed from or new players rising up in the game; that is the goal of this league from my point of view, and the way the rules are meant to be established. The goal of the caps is to win, bend the rules, get the best team, and win. Or at least that's the way most of them for the past 2 seasons ran their teams. 2) support. This league doesn't get even close to half the support that TWL or TWD get. It is unknown to probably half the zone, hell 1/4 of staff didn't even know what it was. I solo'd the league last year (luckily this year things got better), however this year advertisement is down substantially. It doesn't reach the pubbers, the rules have holes because I swear to god I am the only person to read them, and we don't nearly get the hosting turnout that TWL does (although even that is poor). You have to understand that this is a subsidiary league, it is not TWL or TWD which define Trench Wars competition. This is a space filler league, and until it is recognized by staff and the zone as anything more, it will remain that way. You get me the support TWL has, and I will hand you a golden league; otherwise I will keep plugging away hoping to generate a fun league that people enjoy during their break between TWL's.

[Ardour]

3/4 of them didn't know how to change arena, pm, squadpm, squadjoin, and of course didnt know what twl was (which is tw's main attraction) etc after playing for like 2 days until I told them irl what to do lol

After a month of playing public I was told elim exsisted. When I went back to playing public, I never knew there was more than 1 public until I was stranded in an empty public and I asked a passer by where everyone was. If you introduce people to all aspects to quickly, theyll get bored of it faster. Plus its an overload. Ive tried many of my friends with this game but none have liked it at all. Even the 2 people that I knew from day one have both quit over 2 years ago. Im only still playing now because of a small few people that still play that Ive become good friends with. Its all about connections! The only way to progress from public is to be a part of a squad. But now with twdt, it helps introduce old and new players to each other that never would of had a reason to speak before.

I think it should be increased to 7 vs 7 however. I would like to see it be a little different to TWL and TWD. Plus also make it so 2 6*'s have to play. At the moment, the only thing killing my turnout is the only taken part in 2 league matches rule. Other than that, Im pretty pleased with my players and there showing. APART FROM trenchwars #1 Lil Bi*ch Vash whos to scared to turn up because "your team sucks". Hes only prepared to login if hes surrounded by top players. True sign of a top warbird...

Next season it will hopefully all be fixed if Ardour is able to finish the TWLM style rating system and new site, but that's still an unknown.

I know Ive not been able to do any work on it lately because of work, but Ive had this week off and have spent nearly every day working on it. The players and squads admin management side is pretty much finished. Ive tried to contact you or HMS a few times in game but neither of you 2 are ever alive when Ive tried.... Just going to get back to work on the site now and start/finish match reporting so the forums wont have to be used any more and then statistics are perm saved. (login works for all players but captains/assistants/players have no functionality as of yet. They can however click "view profile" and see there own stats from last season, but thats it so far)

[Eeks]

I have to agree with voth on the 6* rule being dumb. I mean it says "started 1-2 TWL games" and I've played around 20 twlbs.

[Voth]

I offered....no one seemed interesting...hell I have even been open entirely to suggestion this entire time encouraging people to criticize the league, to offer suggestions, and outside of a select few people I have gotten jack shit for feedback. So how am I supposed to make this league more available and friendly without some player feedback? I mean the entire reason that izor and wark were going to run this league this season was because I didn't have a plethora of hours to sink into it, and I still don't. I do the best I can and people seem to enjoy it. Next season it will hopefully all be fixed if Ardour is able to finish the TWLM style rating system and new site, but that's still an unknown. Hell there is a strong possibility that I will retire by next summer.

Anyways here's the two main problems with why fledgling players don't get to be added. 1) caps want to win. Flat out, they want to win and they want the best they can get on their roster. If that means filling a few roster spots with fodder who will never play to maximize their cap availability then so be it. They aren't going to play the crappy players because they don't have the same intentions that I do. I establish a set of rules that encourages the development of players, whether it be vets developing skills in a new league or a league they are long since removed from or new players rising up in the game; that is the goal of this league from my point of view, and the way the rules are meant to be established. The goal of the caps is to win, bend the rules, get the best team, and win. Or at least that's the way most of them for the past 2 seasons ran their teams. 2) support. This league doesn't get even close to half the support that TWL or TWD get. It is unknown to probably half the zone, hell 1/4 of staff didn't even know what it was. I solo'd the league last year (luckily this year things got better), however this year advertisement is down substantially. It doesn't reach the pubbers, the rules have holes because I swear to god I am the only person to read them, and we don't nearly get the hosting turnout that TWL does (although even that is poor). You have to understand that this is a subsidiary league, it is not TWL or TWD which define Trench Wars competition. This is a space filler league, and until it is recognized by staff and the zone as anything more, it will remain that way. You get me the support TWL has, and I will hand you a golden league; otherwise I will keep plugging away hoping to generate a fun league that people enjoy during their break between TWL's.

I'm really not criticizing you directly Summa, I do appreciate the work you put into this league, and I know you're doing what you can with what the zone is giving you to work with. This isn't an attack on you; it's more an examination on what needs to change in order to propel this league from a time filler for competitive players to a league that will bring more competition to the zone by heavily including a new player aspect to the league.

[Kid Kaos]

The Problem I see here is: How do we market a 14 year old game to a market of young players who only want to get on their xbox 360 and play Halo? I dont think we will ever be able to draw in large numbers of new players to subspace simply because those who have not played this game and know nothing about it really have no real interest in playing a low tech game like this.

[Exalt]

The Problem I see here is: How do we market a 14 year old game to a market of young players who only want to get on their xbox 360 and play Halo? I dont think we will ever be able to draw in large numbers of new players to subspace simply because those who have not played this game and know nothing about it really have no real interest in playing a low tech game like this.

I agree. You guys act like we are the only zone, but we aren't. I'm almost positive every zone in this game has tried something similar, and nothing new has happened.

All the people in pubs were old vets that got the random email from pure_luck or w/e saying "COME BACK TO TRENCHWARS!". I checked one day, its the truth. They are not new players, they are very old players that were always pubbers.

THis game is as good as dead really.

[ignite ignite]

quit ss, 3D games are the best.