RATINGS

[Majorcrisis2]

Hellrazor you are admitting rating bias? Or does scamming mean the stats for him are faked?

He just pointed out that Henry saari 'demanded' two seasons ago to be an 8. He tried to get as few 8 stars as possible that season, he was the head op. But asked me, zid and dw to do ratings but with his big influence to get enough playtime in basing. So yea, ratings can be biased. Ease can think player A is worth 9 in rating, while everyone else thinks he is a 8. There will always be ratings off cuz its an opinion, not pure based on stats. Which i agree on, there is more than just the stats.

[skyforger]

The ratings and capping are inherently biased but I think Ease actually did a fair job here. Not a copy paste and, albeit surprising, not doing Ogron's bidding as has been suggested.

We've tried ratings auto formulated by last league results - Basing Cup ratings based on automated TSL stats. Those were garbage. Doing it manually and subjectively in TWDTs seems to produce way better accuracy of who's who in top level play.

Most involved players have a rough idea where things stand. In an ideal situation we'd have a rating for each deciding factor - showing up / attitude / likely performance. As is, all these factors are meshed up. Manually going through every persons rating in 3 leagues alone is boring and time consuming, expecting an operator to provide a detailed and objectively backed breakdown is too much to ask and expect operator volunteers in the future.

[Za!Dink]

He just pointed out that Henry saari 'demanded' two seasons ago to be an 8. He tried to get as few 8 stars as possible that season, he was the head op. But asked me, zid and dw to do ratings but with his big influence to get enough playtime in basing. So yea, ratings can be biased. Ease can think player A is worth 9 in rating, while everyone else thinks he is a 8. There will always be ratings off cuz its an opinion, not pure based on stats. Which i agree on, there is more than just the stats.

Scrolling through past 3 leagues there's not that much changes in ratings you are referring to, over 90% are the same. Each twdt has had few more or less 8s looking at sheets. Pretty funny for whichever captain picks up clearly broken 8s or 7s for upcoming season. I'll certainly be entertained watching the recordings while lying on a beach and if i bother, coming here to refer to my earlier progressiveness chart suggestion about these players.

[Grasps]

Draft order will be randomized. In the past, draft order was selected around an hour before the actual draft itself, but I don't see any reason why the draft order can't be decided early to give captains more time to plan. Give me a day or so to think on this. Also, the actual draft itself will be a live snake draft as it has been in years past. Thanks.

Sup my man. Hope you are doing good. Wanted to share my thoughts on some of the ratings that I think need to be adjusted. This is only for WB since it's the only division I follow religiously. For the most part they are solid just a few discrepancies that I think need to be addressed before draft to ensure this TWDT is the closest, most competitive yet. Here are the players and their ratings that I think need to be adjusted;

Ogron - 9
Jamal - 8.5
Morph - 8.5
Mikkiz - 8.0
Zizzo - 8.5
Caos - 8
Undercut - 8
Tiny - 8
Rab - 6
Paky Dude - 9
Afghan - 6
Wiibimbo - 6
Jessup - 8
Tok - 8
2PacZ - 9
Myollnir - 7
Banks - 7.5
Glyde - 7
Felix Da Cat - 7.5
Swagger AKA World - 7.5

Maybe bump Yeh up by 1 * just because he lags worse than Ricko and Iron Survivor combined.

Again these are just for warbird but strongly feel they need to be re-considered from where they are now because some are quite broken again ie. Jamal, Morph. Other than the dozen or so I listed, the rest look spot on me. Overall these ratings are the best I've seen since I've been active in TWDT even with the concerning ones I brought forward, really happy with the overall results. So thanks man.

Oh yea... Why do we have to use the 'snake' draft this twdt? Seems like 1st and the last pick get the biggest benefit out of it since the high talent pool is thin. Curious your thoughts on why we are using it. Have a good 4th of July. Goes for anyone who read this post. Take it easy.

-Ixa

[Rab]

Oh yea... Why do we have to use the 'snake' draft this twdt? Seems like 1st and the last pick get the biggest benefit out of it since the high talent pool is thin.
-Ixa

Is there a better way?

[Rough]

When will the draft order be announced? Trolling aside...I remember when Claus went on a tirade against Zidane on forums few years back, dirty laundry was being aired out publicly stating providing favors behind the scenes with draft order / free agency / star levels. I could be wrong with that comment but I am putting it out there, I am sure Ease wouldn't let it happen since he is controlling it now.

[afghan]

I agree with ixador, I am a 6* wb. Especially considering Jamal, commodo, and morph are 7*. I would also say yeh is a 6* wb considering hes about as bad as I am in the bird.

[Grasps]

Is there a better way?

Randomize draft order per round rather than per draft is one idea. Would be more work though for Ease, not really a good idea but is an option. There's got to be several ways to draft people I'd think but having thought about it snake is probably best to stay with at the time. Don't think anyone has ever complained about it and if it aint broken probably doesn't need to be fixed.

Not sure what you'd call this method but it'd be my vote if we were to do away with the snake. Idea is.. Round 1 draft order: 1st cap/pick, 2nd cap/pick, 3rd cap/pick. ect.. Round 2 draft order: 2nd cap/ 1st pick, 3rd cap/2nd pick, 4th cap/3rd pick, ect. 8th cap/7th pick, 1st cap/8th pick. So here in Round 2, the 2nd captain in Round 1 of draft got to draft 1st in Round 2. Same thing here. Round 3 draft order: 3rd cap/1st pick, 4th cap/2nd pick, 5th cap/3rd pick, ect. 8th cap/6th pick, 1st cap/7th pick, 2nd cap/8th pick. In Round 3, the 3rd captain got to pick 1st in Round 3. Would give everyone a chance at having 1st pick in a round because it continues on from the position in which the pick is made to the next captain in line ie; 3rd captain in 3 round picked 1st, 4th captain in round 3 picked 2nd, it keeps the draft flow fair.

Anyways, snake is fine too I guess. Probably works all the same and me suggesting a new method will most likely ruffle feathers which is last thing I want to do. Probably should of refrained from bringing it up in the first place in hindsight. Oh well. Guess it never hurts to brain storm over possible ways to make the draft experience more fair for everyone. Hopefully didn't piss anyone off tho lol Cheers.

EDIT

PS: Forgot to let you guys know. There is no way I can captain. I know I posted a while back in another thread that I could "maybe" captain but I was just trolling to get my haters to step up to ensure I don't. I had then and have now way too much going on in my personal life. A close family member to me is dying and is due to pass any day and as you probably know it doesn't just end there. I'll be wrapped up in this for the next couple months physically and mentally.. yea it just really would be best for me to engage as little as possible with folks here as I tend to get emo and say shit I end up regretting later.

You guys seem solid though in regards to this years caps and shouldn't need me but I did see that I am listed as (nuclear option) which actually is kind of true to some degree, I definitely can't cap so it would be a bomb to this twdt if it came down to me being your guy to keeping this going. Thanks for understanding. Ease, Claus, Wirah and everyone involved else in this years twdt are just awesome. Seriously. Love you guys. Appreciate everything you guys do. Excited for TWDT and hope everyone has a blast this season.

[Hulk]

Henry is a 7* baser at best you guys are all trash stfu

[With Ease]

Thanks for the feedback. There seem to be a few players that have been mentioned frequently that warrant a rating change. Any changes to ratings will be provided by editing the first post to include a changelog of the ratings. As for the ratings themselves, it's an impossibility to get them fully accurate without doing something ridiculous like rating to the nearest tenth. There may be some players that deserve to be bumped up, but when you bump them up the same issue occurs and there's an obvious difference in skill between similarly-rated players.

Draft order will be decided TOMORROW, JULY 3 at 8 PM EASTERN. I realize this is late and those of you that live in Europe will miss out on it, but I will set up a twitch account to live stream the randomized draft order. Whether or not you're in attendance won't make a difference. I will be sure to get a few viewers and provide a public link once I get everything set up so that you can verify that it truly is randomized.

Tomorrow I will also work on making sure the rules page reflects that there will be 8 teams. For now, the current plan is to keep the star caps in place from last season (40/40/67).

[Grasps]

Realistically the skill level from an 8* player to a 9* player is nearly indistinguishable whereas a 7* star player to an 8* player the disparity between the two are much more recognizable. So for simplicity sake, I don't think many of us will care if you don't worry about players like Paky Dude or Ogron who probably and rightfully deserve 9's compared to Jamal, Morph, Zizzo, ect. who deserve 8's over their current rating of 7.

7's make far less impact in a game than an 8 and those underrated are easily exploitable to make strong lines. It's been an issue as you know quite a few twdt's. I am quite fine if you ignore anyone who I didn't suggest to go from 7 to 8, as like I said, a difference from a 6 to a 7 is very little as is a 8 to a 9. 7 to 8 is a big difference and I think if you can crack down on those discrepancies we will be looking the best ever for TWDT in terms of competition. Thanks for the quick response too man, I know you are busy and don't need shit like this on your plate but I think it will pay off if you could make a few adjustments to the said players. Aight, i've bothered you enough bro. Sorry about this. lol Cheers.

-Ixa

EDIT: just going to re-add the players that if you were only going to change a few would be the ones I think you need to do.

Jamal - 8
Morph - 8
Mikkiz - 8.
Zizzo - 8
Undercut - 8
Tiny - 8
Jessup - 8
Tok - 8

Maketso is questionable as a 7 too, maybe you can think him over but yea, the players above are the most concerning to me. I digress.

[ronaldinho]

I won't be able to watch the live stream for draft order but thanks Ease to allow transparency.

[Zeebu]

the only other way you could draft that is remotely fair is some sort of auction. that takes a lot of skill both from the auctioneer as well as each cap. would be pretty neat though

[Exalt]

Realistically the skill level from an 8* player to a 9* player is nearly indistinguishable whereas a 7* star player to an 8* player the disparity between the two are much more recognizable. So for simplicity sake, I don't think many of us will care if you don't worry about players like Paky Dude or Ogron who probably and rightfully deserve 9's compared to Jamal, Morph, Zizzo, ect. who deserve 8's over their current rating of 7.

7's make far less impact in a game than an 8 and those underrated are easily exploitable to make strong lines. It's been an issue as you know quite a few twdt's. I am quite fine if you ignore anyone who I didn't suggest to go from 7 to 8, as like I said, a difference from a 6 to a 7 is very little as is a 8 to a 9. 7 to 8 is a big difference and I think if you can crack down on those discrepancies we will be looking the best ever for TWDT in terms of competition. Thanks for the quick response too man, I know you are busy and don't need shit like this on your plate but I think it will pay off if you could make a few adjustments to the said players. Aight, i've bothered you enough bro. Sorry about this. lol Cheers.

-Ixa

EDIT: just going to re-add the players that if you were only going to change a few would be the ones I think you need to do.

Jamal - 8
Morph - 8
Mikkiz - 8.
Zizzo - 8
Undercut - 8
Tiny - 8
Jessup - 8
Tok - 8

Maketso is questionable as a 7 too, maybe you can think him over but yea, the players above are the most concerning to me. I digress.

Define 'impact' in games, because I'd disagree with almost all of your WB ratings when you consider who their peers are at regarding * levels. I mean maybe the talent pool shrunk to nothing or something over the years, but some players you suggest being bumped much higher than they should be is also a form of bias.

I'm going to use your reference to Paky Dude in multiple posts as an example of this, no offense to him. You say Paky Dude is a 9* wb for instance, while you're fine with someone like morph at 7*. I'd argue that Paky Dude is in no way significantly better at wb than morph, even though morph is not a WB main. Your bias lies in the fact that you are friends and regular squadmates with Paky Dude, so you overvalue his impact as a player.

Maybe he even is a 9* idk, but a 9* should probably be able to take over games and carry them when surrounded by lower * players. That wasnt really true on Wolf from my knowledge, and the carry was usually Rasaq from that squad. Even ignoring squads and other leagues in general, is a wb lineup in TWDT with Paky Dude as it's best player going to win the championship? 9* means 'best player in the lineup' talent level.

Youd have a better case arguing for 8*, which is more like 'five 8* players pulling their weight can win the championship together' type talent. This is where 7* really fails, because it then means five 7* players are bottom feeders that cannot win together. I can name five 7* players that could win TWL together if they gelled right, so what's this tell everyone?

So you dont feel left out, Mythril gave his opinions that are equally biased too. He thinks Flew is a 9* and Beam is a 10*, and perhaps they are in TWL, but is Flew a 9* without players of a certain skill level whom all understand a certain playstyle around him? Is Beam a 10* carry player in that same situation? If Flew or Beam are stuck on a team that have multiple lower * teammates going 2-10 within 2 minutes of the game starting, are they carrying that team to victory? Mythril said Mega Newbie wasnt able to carry on Paladen, but says Beam would have. So he thinks Beam is a top 3 WB in this game (since only a couple WBs have 10* currently) who can dominate everyone and can carry teammates that will die out asap with severely negative records? That's the difference we are talking about between playing on a top tier TWL squad full of equally skilled players and being considered one of THE best players on a TWDT roster who is the anchor for that teams entire chance of winning, because every other player is below them in skill rating. If Beam is a 10* and Flew is a 9*, then they will be on teams with nobody better than them. They have to carry more than their own weight to be so drastically valued when 90% of the playerbase is at 7*.

This is why ratings are subjective and really biased. Smart players like Mythril see the game one way, while others like myself see it another way. Our different experiences as players playing with and against different lineups through the years can and do shape how we think of other players and their value. Mega Newbie playing on Paladen even for one season likely has a very different view on the players around her, her performance, and why she performed that way compared to what Mythril would.

As an example, a casual observer might see a box score that shows one player going 13-10 and the others going 8-10 in a loss, and they'd assume the 13-10 player was easily the MVP. Well, what if that player suicided and died out in 5 minutes, while their teammates were then playing 4vs5 the entire game until they all died out one by one around minute 12? Is that 13-10 player the MVP then? What if you had a crystal ball that would show you that had the 13-10 player not suicided out like a moron, the 8-10 players would have pulled their weight, one might have gone 14-8 or something, and they'd have won the game instead? Would you still call that 13-10 suicider the MVP?

As another example, let's say in a TWDT game, you have one player every week that dies out with 2-10 in a ridiculously fast amount of time. Are their teammates going to get big records? Do you think they'll be in a Hot or Not circlejerk writeup every week? What if this happens game after game after game? Do you then bump all those players down a * level for the next TWDT, because none performed particularly well? Compare that with a TWDT team full of players who win every single week. Someone from that team is getting MVP every single game, because they're winning every single game. They will be in every Hot or Not, and the circlejerk will show statistics as proof that some player on that team's lineup is now one of the best in the game.

Now, switch that new 'best' player with one of those players from the team that loses 4vs5 every single week. I absolutely promise you, they are not making Hot or Not, not winning recognition, and not being circlejerked as the new 'great' player. It isn't happening. So, do you still raise the * levels of those players who never had to deal with the 2-10 teammate every single game? How good is that player if they've never faced that scenario, because TWDT likely puts at least one of those players in that exact situation. If they dont rise to the challenge, are they REALLY 9* or 10* players? You tell me.

[Tiny]

Define 'impact' in games, because I'd disagree with almost all of your WB ratings when you consider who their peers are at regarding * levels. I mean maybe the talent pool shrunk to nothing or something over the years, but some players you suggest being bumped much higher than they should be is also a form of bias.

I'm going to use your reference to Paky Dude in multiple posts as an example of this, no offense to him. You say Paky Dude is a 9* wb for instance, while you're fine with someone like morph at 7*. I'd argue that Paky Dude is in no way significantly better at wb than morph, even though morph is not a WB main. Your bias lies in the fact that you are friends and regular squadmates with Paky Dude, so you overvalue his impact as a player.

Maybe he even is a 9* idk, but a 9* should probably be able to take over games and carry them when surrounded by lower * players. That wasnt really true on Wolf from my knowledge, and the carry was usually Rasaq from that squad. Even ignoring squads and other leagues in general, is a wb lineup in TWDT with Paky Dude as it's best player going to win the championship? 9* means 'best player in the lineup' talent level.

Youd have a better case arguing for 8*, which is more like 'five 8* players pulling their weight can win the championship together' type talent. This is where 7* really fails, because it then means five 7* players are bottom feeders that cannot win together. I can name five 7* players that could win TWL together if they gelled right, so what's this tell everyone?

So you dont feel left out, Mythril gave his opinions that are equally biased too. He thinks Flew is a 9* and Beam is a 10*, and perhaps they are in TWL, but is Flew a 9* without players of a certain skill level whom all understand a certain playstyle around him? Is Beam a 10* carry player in that same situation? If Flew or Beam are stuck on a team that have multiple lower * teammates going 2-10 within 2 minutes of the game starting, are they carrying that team to victory? Mythril said Mega Newbie wasnt able to carry on Paladen, but says Beam would have. So he thinks Beam is a top 3 WB in this game (since only a couple WBs have 10* currently) who can dominate everyone and can carry teammates that will die out asap with severely negative records? That's the difference we are talking about between playing on a top tier TWL squad full of equally skilled players and being considered one of THE best players on a TWDT roster who is the anchor for that teams entire chance of winning, because every other player is below them in skill rating. If Beam is a 10* and Flew is a 9*, then they will be on teams with nobody better than them. They have to carry more than their own weight to be so drastically valued when 90% of the playerbase is at 7*.

This is why ratings are subjective and really biased. Smart players like Mythril see the game one way, while others like myself see it another way. Our different experiences as players playing with and against different lineups through the years can and do shape how we think of other players and their value. Mega Newbie playing on Paladen even for one season likely has a very different view on the players around her, her performance, and why she performed that way compared to what Mythril would.

As an example, a casual observer might see a box score that shows one player going 13-10 and the others going 8-10 in a loss, and they'd assume the 13-10 player was easily the MVP. Well, what if that player suicided and died out in 5 minutes, while their teammates were then playing 4vs5 the entire game until they all died out one by one around minute 12? Is that 13-10 player the MVP then? What if you had a crystal ball that would show you that had the 13-10 player not suicided out like a moron, the 8-10 players would have pulled their weight, one might have gone 14-8 or something, and they'd have won the game instead? Would you still call that 13-10 suicider the MVP?

As another example, let's say in a TWDT game, you have one player every week that dies out with 2-10 in a ridiculously fast amount of time. Are their teammates going to get big records? Do you think they'll be in a Hot or Not circlejerk writeup every week? What if this happens game after game after game? Do you then bump all those players down a * level for the next TWDT, because none performed particularly well? Compare that with a TWDT team full of players who win every single week. Someone from that team is getting MVP every single game, because they're winning every single game. They will be in every Hot or Not, and the circlejerk will show statistics as proof that some player on that team's lineup is now one of the best in the game.

Now, switch that new 'best' player with one of those players from the team that loses 4vs5 every single week. I absolutely promise you, they are not making Hot or Not, not winning recognition, and not being circlejerked as the new 'great' player. It isn't happening. So, do you still raise the * levels of those players who never had to deal with the 2-10 teammate every single game? How good is that player if they've never faced that scenario, because TWDT likely puts at least one of those players in that exact situation. If they dont rise to the challenge, are they REALLY 9* or 10* players? You tell me.

HOLY...please provide tl;dr version. am at work.