What's after TWDT?

[ogron]

TWL: Not enough elite players, too newbie averse and negative effect on zone population.

TWDT: There's too many good players benching due to star restrictions given the influx of players. Lots of vets are going to quit because there's 8 good players on a team and you can only fit 2 into your line.

Should alternate between TWDT with star restrictions, and TWDT Pro. Make the next TWDT with star restrictions 8 teams. TWDT Pro will be fine with 6 teams, I think.


TWDT Pro

-6 teams
-No star restrictions

Add 2 teams after the fact that only play each other so people benching get to play and get some experience for WB and Jav. Have a ladder set up like TSL where those benchers are competing for a medal (say, their best 5 games out of 10) and you give out awards to those players at the end of the season.

So, for example, at 3:00pm the announcements would be:

POWER vs LEGIO in ?go twdtd
GLADIATOR vs SILENCE in ?go twdtd2
THUNDER vs TERRORIST in ?go twdtd3
TEAM A vs TEAM B in ?go twdtd4

I mean, you could do that right now for this TWDT, honestly. Help develop players, get them unrusted, and keep people interested.

[Majorcrisis2]

If i speak for myself, i have no interest in qualifying stuff etc. My time is more limited and only feel like playing on sundays most of the time. When you look at the last tsl, you see thats not an option anymore. It was fun the first two seasons. Back to back twdt would be too much imo.

I proposed a new league way in the back. Teams of 4 wb or jav, either solo or combinate it. Everyone can create a team with friends. We could either split the teams by some kind of twdt rating, or let people battle in randomsized groupstages. Every #1 battle each other after that in new groupstage, playoffs after that and bam. Every #2 same, every #3 same etc. This means everyone can keep playing for a 'longer' time instead of 'new players' benching or being out early in the season.

This can be easily done for warbird and jav. Basing is another thing.. You could combinate this thing with basing cup. Then ppl can still do wb-jav-base like with twdt.

[zidane]

I would be interested in a twl season. If needed twlb should be run separately from both ld and lj. Returning players are far more likely to stick around for twl than a new league.

I do also like the idea of dt with no star cap and more teams

[skyforger]

I prefer the zone to have some decent non-pub action going throughout the week I can jump into. I also strongly think rinse and repeat TWDT is boring and will fade out.

Given past and present player preferences something TWLesque next seems logical and theres time to set it up good. With this route stacking is a major issue though. Perhaps have two tiers - uncapped and a strictly star capped one (keep everyone involved).

To prevent the zone from being boring outside Sundays - integrate whatever teams the next league has to play/practice in TWD. When/if this revives TWD action and squads, we have options to do TWD Cup right too in the future.

Once we are settled on what works best, rotate the different Sunday leagues so there is always major action going on Sundays. I'm not sure if solo, 2v2 or 3v3 or TWD alone league carries enough excitement to be the main event for Sundays but those are good ideas for throughout week action.

[Wirah]

To prevent the zone from being boring outside Sundays - integrate whatever teams the next league has to play/practice in TWD. When/if this revives TWD action and squads, we have options to do TWD Cup right too in the future.

This is really interesting. Imagine knowing you're playing vs SquadB this coming Sunday but you're able to play some friendly games vs them throughout the week in preparation (for both teams), and then the big day finally rolls around where you face their best lineup. I guess it could have a negative effect too. SquadA might get slaughtered and lose morale for the coming weekend. No one wants to show up knowing they're probably going to lose. Aligning TWD with the TWDT squads during TWDT season would also mean a squadreset at the end of the season as everyone moves on to wherever they want to be. Could be a healthy thing. Unfair to those who want to TWD but don't want to be involved in TWDT at all - but surely thats not many.
It also gives lower stars some actual playtime even if they don't get to play on the Sunday they can still support the team during the week (and maybe influence the caps decision in picking them that coming Sunday). Cool thoughts.

[RoDNeY]

could randomize a somewhat TWDT format where there are 8-10 captains and then everyone else signs up, bot uses a RNG to randomly pick players and assign them to teams. Im sure some type of rating or tier system would have to be in place to keep some form of balance. As in all Tier 1 players get RNG'd first, then Tier 2, then Tier 3 so that one team doesnt end up with a stacked Tier 1 member list while another gets left with a majority of inexperienced players.

This could be fun as it would add a level of surprise to a league, it would also allow players to play alongside others that they might normally never get to team up with and let some newer players get some exposure next to veterans.

This could also help eliminate some instances where High rated players have to bench because of star cap, as high rated players would be more spread out across the league instead

[Rab]

That's what TSL does and everyone hates it.

[RoDNeY]

That's what TSL does and everyone hates it.

oh, was unaware. never participated in tsl

[Mythril]

Whoaaa fucking epic feedback.

As for the dev side. I'm open to creating new sites for whatever leagues we need. There's a good enough foundation with the TWDT site that can be repurposed to suit whatever we need.
We also have AngelGirl on the dev team now with an Elim project coming very soon that does some cool things with the game data we've collected throughout each Elim season.
The bigger picture is to overhaul (and simplify) the whole TW website and give everything a long overdue clean-up. Delete 95% of the frontend crap that's built up over 20 years and now sits unused.
When the TW site is running modern framework we'll really be able to do some interesting things with our leagues. Think 1v1/2v2 duel timeslot scheduling for players to make TWEL/TWDL games easier to coordinate. News & announcements module that people actually look at. Section for these recorded match videos. Stats calculated automatically.
Good times ahead so lets keep going. I can feel the excitement. 68+ people showing up in ?to TWDT to watch the FA draft last night. Someone reminded us that its more than every other arena of every other zone combined. Amazing work so far bringing us to this point with TWDT!

THIS is the kind of shit that gets me hyped as fuck. I've previewed some of the stuff the dev team is working on. There are amazing projects in the works. There's so much cool shit we can do now.

skyforger , that's a great idea. If we could just force TWDT rosters into the TWD website and have commands like !dtchallenge, that'd make TWDT even more enjoyable. Teams could play TWD or practice with their DT team whenever and build chemistry with each other. We'd see higher quality games on Sundays and captains would be able to evaluate their players and tweak their lineups accordingly. If it's possible, this has to happen.

Hopefully all vets who got them' medals back in the good days of TWL can relax a little and allow TWL to comeback. I think that's really the only big hangup, the notion that TWL can't be touched until "x, y, z are met" to uphold integrity of seasons past and those who have medals now.

I agree with you. This is the biggest problem we have, and it's only a cultural one. I've moved past it for a while now, and I think nearly every other veteran will as well if TWL is done correctly.

The TWL medals are still the biggest prize in the game. We all know this, and yet they're just sitting in the closet in the name of preservation. What are we preserving them for? What's the point of running faux-TWL kinds of leagues when their prize would be cheapened simply by the virtue of the league's name?

There's only one mega prize in the game, and there's no way of changing it. Fuck preserving the prestige of banzi and demonfaze. They don't play anymore. The game belongs to the players who still logon in 2019. I also trust that if TWL does lose a little prestige, that the community is intelligent enough to differentiate the eras and quality of championships won. We already do this all the time.

Quick brainstorming sketch after reading all these responses:

I love the idea of TWL. But these are the non-negotiables it needs to satisfy:

• Reduce stacking
• Allow as many teams as reasonably possible to participate
• Create parity for more than just the usual two or three stacked teams
• Promote activity

TWL can work if we reduce cores from stacking heavily, and most importantly, hoarding elite players on the bench who get to ride to free medals. We're fooling ourselves if we think that wasn't the main reason why TWL fizzled out in its later years.

We could do something like a 45*-47* cap maximum for each TWLD-J lineup. That would maintain the quality of TWL championship teams in the past and remove a potential Golden State Warriors lineup from making the season a competitive joke. And only the players who actually play in a significant portion of the games (or playoffs) would receive a title. This removes the incentive for a good player to ride the bench on a stacked team, as he would be wasting away his season with nothing to gain. Coords don't win championships. The future TWL medals would become far more rare and also carry a prestige that previous TWL seasons haven't, as only the players actually doing the winning would receive a medal.

If we separate jav/wb from base and maintain the standard schedule we've used, we could have a condensed season with 3 wb rounds/3 jav rounds each week. This would guarantee several very high quality matches every single Sunday and the lesser squads would get an incredible amount of league experience.

We could add an "activity" incentive during the regular season for squads who are TWDing regularly. As much as we shun this idea, the game is best when it's active everyday, and we should reward the squads who are making it active and enjoyable. Squads like Paladen receive a lot of hate, but they're the ONLY constant that keeps this game remotely afloat when the game is at its' lowest points. We should build something that promotes activity into the playoff qualifying, while the Sunday games would still hold the most weight.

This is epic so far. Everything is still TBD, so let's keep brainstorming. Some seriously great ideas here already.

[kentaro]

Quick brainstorming sketch after reading all these responses:

I love the idea of TWL. But these are the non-negotiables it needs to satisfy:

• Reduce stacking
• Allow as many teams as reasonably possible to participate
• Create parity for more than just the usual two or three stacked teams
• Promote activity

TWL can work if we reduce cores from stacking heavily, and most importantly, hoarding elite players on the bench who get to ride to free medals. We're fooling ourselves if we think that wasn't the main reason why TWL fizzled out in its later years.

We could do something like a 45*-47* cap maximum for each TWLD-J lineup. That would maintain the quality of TWL championship teams in the past and remove a potential Golden State Warriors lineup from making the season a competitive joke. And only the players who actually play in a significant portion of the games (or playoffs) would receive a title. This removes the incentive for a good player to ride the bench on a stacked team, as he would be wasting away his season with nothing to gain. Coords don't win championships. The future TWL medals would become far more rare and also carry a prestige that previous TWL seasons haven't, as only the players actually doing the winning would receive a medal.

If we separate jav/wb from base and maintain the standard schedule we've used, we could have a condensed season with 3 wb rounds/3 jav rounds each week. This would guarantee several very high quality matches every single Sunday and the lesser squads would get an incredible amount of league experience.

We could add an "activity" incentive during the regular season for squads who are TWDing regularly. As much as we shun this idea, the game is best when it's active everyday, and we should reward the squads who are making it active and enjoyable. Squads like Paladen receive a lot of hate, but they're the ONLY constant that keeps this game remotely afloat when the game is at its' lowest points. We should build something that promotes activity into the playoff qualifying, while the Sunday games would still hold the most weight.

This is epic so far. Everything is still TBD, so let's keep brainstorming. Some seriously great ideas here already.

What differentiates TWL with star limits from TWDT though?

[Jessup]

TWDT is good but but has a serious flaw in how players are forced into the equation on teams with zero say in their fate. Even the caps are basically fixed before the season starts. Example.. grasps wanted to cap and volunteered very early but was just shut down and denied. He had the energy to do things if given the chance but was ignored. I realize the thought process behind this was a top star is lost in the equation during draft because it lowers a squad by one top pick but this also is just one more aspect taking away players personal choice. Drafting is not really ideal when it comes to individual player satisfaction, let alone the many players who get denied any playtime at all in it.

IMO we need a league that brings back personal choice to players in a way that still considers realistic population limits that could make it succeed. TWL is the only option I see doable in this regards. It is tried and tested and was always much better than TWDT when it came to player satisfaction. There were always underdogs that lacked the player base to win yet they were allowed to participate when they met the regulations and got to participate and PLAY! Sure we don't have 40 squads now but that doesn't mean we can't create enough squads to do this successfully. Just auto invite EVERY squad who can meet some criteria preset beforehand. The hashing out would take some foresight but I see no reason it is not possible. The more I think about it the more 4 vs 4 is the way to go for DD and JD. Roster Cap limits too have to be used.

If we had a 8-10 roster limit per squad there are easily enough players to create 10 squads for 4 vs 4.

In my case I'd probably make a Paladen Elite with or without Jebass. Paladen could become 2 or 3 squads in itself. It could really reshuffle the current TWD dynamic not only with Paladen but other squads too.

I'm def against twdt back to back in any form. BRING BACK FREE WILL FOR THE CAPS AND PLAYERS!!

[zidane]

There's always going to be favorites and underdogs.. if people really care about winning they should try to improve. I do agree that roster limits should be strict (not strict enough to cause forfeits) but it should be a choice where to play and not a twdt-like imposed restriction. The game at its peak is when its squad based and rivalries are created. None of this star cap nonsense if it's actually twl.

Strict medal restrictions has been tried before and usually doesn't hold up by the end of the season but it's a good idea in theory.

Twlb being separated from twld and twlj on it's own is going to reduce a lot of stacking as it's going to force a lot of people to split up (ie: X baser won't get play time in jav or WB but would have played base will join a new team).

[Kim]

One way to reduce stacking for leagues is to only have certain players registered to play in a certain league. For instance, a squad can only field their registered 5 starters and 2 subs for dueling leagues, and only these players will receive recognition for the TWL win. If a player is inactive or quits, they can be replaced. Basing, similarly, would have starters listed with an appropriate number of subs for the ships as the only players recognized when it comes to fame and glory.

To make it easier, you could be on 3 different squads, rather than 1 squad that encompasses all the leagues.

TWL will be differentiated from TWDT because the teams are self-assembled, without any star limits. But with this system, there is no way you can become a recognized TWL champ unless you contributed directly to the cause.

[Efhat]

TWL can happen with restricted rosters.
very restricted, like, if a squad is planning on just going for TWLD there should be maybe a 7 man limit. Same with LJ alone. Like a BoZ style squad if y?all remember them? Or I>u. They competed with a 7 man roster in LJ only.
Basing alone Maybe 11 12?
2 or 3 league squad I guess it?s up for debate. But it should be very low. To spread the talent and avoid stacking.

and prior to the league starting, the squads that are being created should register for the league they are going to compete in. So there?s a roster limit throughout the season.

and the medals let?s say you double crown, you get like a two star medal to show you double crowned, etc.

i also think they should bring back that fantasy select we had for every league. I forgot the website for it. Idk if we have the resources for that but that was fun too. Where you?d buy players for the cash given.

it?s just a generic idea that?s open for interpretation. But I think it can work.

[afghan]

It sounds like our real two options are TWL (+/- separated base from wb/jav) or TWDT.

ideas for TWDT if repeated:
1. Switch to 8 teams
2. Auto sign-up current players unless they refuse or afk >10 days
3. Establish captains prior to current playoffs.
4. Agree with changing system for playing (ogrons previous system versus no limit)

ideas if TWL hosted:
1. DO NOT have qualifications based on TWD. This system is outdated and people just arent active enough to TWD consistently for that to be the qualifier. There should literally just be a forum thread that captains post their rosters. It?s what we did in EG and it works.
2. Roster cap
- realistic number is 12 with 5 starters.
3. No cap limit in terms of skill because thats not TWL (I tried starting a league like this in EG but it didnt get enough interest bc people dont want to have options to choose while limiting their choices).
4. Separate wb/jav from base and host back to back as mentioned above. Other option is host them simultaneously but with separate rosters but that would probably be too complicated.