Wow this sucks

[bloodzombie]

Man, you're getting old if you think this'll fly. Yeah, hanging out outside and cleaning up parks would be fun- but not if uncle sam is making it mandatory. Also, not everyone wants to go to college, so service in exchange for tuition doesn't always work. If it was offered as a choice instead of mandatory, I think it'd be pretty popular as a way to help pay for college.

It's not exactly service in exchange for college.. it's mandatory service, and then they offer you an education. Too many people take from our country and give nothing back. Of course it would be a hard thing to get passed, and probably never will, but if you think about it, it would have a fantastic impact on our country in the long run.

[Kolar]

A guy (senator, but i forget if R or D) in a state i also forget is trying to get handguns leagalized again in bars.

Apparently, in this state guns are not allowed in bars. Cause you could get drunk and kill someone. The senator claims this is unfair and unjust.

Stupid things ahppen in america all the time, it'll be gone soon enough.

I saw that on the daily show, good god that guy is messed up to want something not only obscure but dangerous.

I think Americans value their absolute free will and their constitutional rights so this bill probably won't get anywhere. It might seem different for people outside of NA but people generally don't like being forced into doing things, forced military work in my mind seems very alien to western culture.

[Awesome]

Too many people take from our country and give nothing back.

I highly disagree. First of all, what exactly are you referring to when you say "people take from our country" ... What do they take? second of all, people give back with their tax dollars. The government makes sure you dont get something for nothing.

The government forcing you to give up your free time to do something you dont want to do doesn't sound like freedom to me.

[bloodzombie]

I highly disagree. First of all, what exactly are you referring to when you say "people take from our country" ... What do they take? second of all, people give back with their tax dollars. The government makes sure you dont get something for nothing.

Tell that to all the women in the projects collecting welfare for their 11 kids.

Your attitude about the freedom part is probably the same as most people, and is why it would never pass, but if you really think about it, you woudln't be forced to do anything, you'd just be forced to do SOMETHING... you'd get to pick what it was.

[Awesome]

Tell that to all the women in the projects collecting welfare for their 11 kids.

Your attitude about the freedom part is probably the same as most people, and is why it would never pass, but if you really think about it, you woudln't be forced to do anything, you'd just be forced to do SOMETHING... you'd get to pick what it was.

maybe those women should learn to support themselves first before having 11 kids... and i'm sure even these women pay their taxes. Why should everyone else have to go out and give back to the community simply because there are some people, like these single mothers with 11 kids, who take from it.

[bloodzombie]

maybe those women should learn to support themselves first before having 11 kids... and i'm sure even these women pay their taxes. Why should everyone else have to go out and give back to the community simply because there are some people, like these single mothers with 11 kids, who take from it.

yeah, they pay their taxes with the social security checks that they get.

I think you're missing the point... it's not really about that woman, it's also about those 11 kids. Chances are, they're gonna grow up and do the same thing that their parents did if they don't learn something different.

this system would work for us on so many levels, the benefit of the work they did would only be part of it, the other part, and probably more important part is what the kids would gain, and not just the poor project kids, but everyone... they would learn a skill that they might not have learned otherwise, or in some cases, it would be something that they wanted to get into anyway, and it could be a start on their career path. they would meet people that they woudln't have met otherwise. Our young people would grow up to be more enlightened and well-rounded than the previous generation.

[Benno]

I highly disagree. First of all, what exactly are you referring to when you say "people take from our country" ... What do they take?

In the boradest sense, everything. Some generations have to give up everything so the next can enjoy the life they do. Maybe I should just count myself lucky to live in a time where I can basicly do anything I want rather then in a time like WWII where people died to defend what I take for granted. Of coruse we shouldn't create a monster just for the sake of slaying it to say we did our part, though some people belive that is what we are doing. But a little served wouldn't be so bad.

I'm 19 and in college right now; two years of mandatory service would be preferable to being a generation know 100 years from now as being lazy and selfish.

--//-- Edit: posts merged
I think I would have gotten more out of two years of mandatory millitary service then I got out of my four years of mandatory high school attendance. The freedom infringment argument is a poor one becuase there are so many things we are required to do in society that people accept as givens. The people who would benefit the most would be those 11 kids.. people who never have such opportunities given to them otherwise.

Normally I belive socalized anything is always the poorest choice, and in the case of an acctual fighting force it would be. However in a limited scope (6 months to a year maybe, with the option to stay in of course) this could be a good thing.

Again though, it won't happen. The bill mentioned is dead and the article is just really poorly concieved anti-establishment propoganda.

[Subjugation]

I doubt the bill would be passed infact it probably was shot down by most politicans thats probaby why we havent heard about it.
However i wouldnt have any objections to the bill. Military service teaches well needed social skills such as respect, communication, direction and leadership if all those "gangstas" and other citizens below the moral line joined the army i can bet you that they will come out more socially acceptable and who knows maybe even become productive members of society :eek:.
Ofcourse there is the downside that they all will be killed in war but thats a farfetched scenrio.

since when do trolls know anything about social skills?

[Subjugation]

think about it.. would it really be so bad for an 18 year old to go clean up national parks with a bunch of other 18 year olds for 2 years? I think I would've loved it, and I think it would be an opportunity for inner-city kids to get out of the city. and I think it woudl build character in our young people.

yea, i think this would be the lesser of the two evils. i'm not for mandatory military service, but if there came about a crisis where our branches of military were understaffed and the country's security was endangered, i'd consider this a good proposal.

however, i don't think it's good for our country to force people into the military who would otherwise enter college, so i'd also be willing to exclude them from the mandatory service. and what about homosexuals? would they finally be allowed into the military? i would hope at a time of crisis where soldiers are needed badly, they would finally be forced to put aside their prejudice.

america is supposed to be a land of opportunity, where people can be WHATEVER they want to be. they shouldn't have to grow up to be soliders, or government employees unless our nation comes under great danger where mandatory service is our only option.

[bloodzombie]

america is supposed to be a land of opportunity, where people can be WHATEVER they want to be. they shouldn't have to grow up to be soliders, or government employees unless our nation comes under great danger where mandatory service is our only option.

But there's a major problem with building an emergency army with mandatory service. they don't want to be there, they're under-trained, it takes a long time to get them trained and mobilized... why do you think we lost so many in vietnam?

the system I mentioned would encourage more people to enter the service, and also more people to go to college. every single person would be offered at least 2 years at school.

[Subjugation]

But there's a major problem with building an emergency army with mandatory service. they don't want to be there, they're under-trained, it takes a long time to get them trained and mobilized... why do you think we lost so many in vietnam?

the system I mentioned would encourage more people to enter the service, and also more people to go to college. every single person would be offered at least 2 years at school.

well, i disagree that was the formost reason why we lost so many in vietnam, but that's another discussion, i guess. but i get your point, an emergency-army would not be as effective as a well trained one.

good ideas, but i wouldn't sign off on it. my main problem with mandatory service is a fundamental mistrust with my government. after seeing what bush has done with iraq, i could not in good conscience vote for mandatory service in a military that is misused by our administration.

[THE ENFORCER]

yeah, they pay their taxes with the social security checks that they get.

Not income tax maybe tax on goods and services though.

this system would work for us on so many levels, the benefit of the work they did would only be part of it, the other part, and probably more important part is what the kids would gain, and not just the poor project kids, but everyone... they would learn a skill that they might not have learned otherwise, or in some cases, it would be something that they wanted to get into anyway, and it could be a start on their career path. they would meet people that they woudln't have met otherwise. Our young people would grow up to be more enlightened and well-rounded than the previous generation.

They dont have to offer tutition maybe paid government aprentice jobs would be sufficient for those people. However one pracitcality issue arises. Here in Aust we have something called HECS which is simply that the government lends us the money at an interest free rate for our tutition fees at Uni and we pay it back later once we are in our profession. Im sure the US would do the same except Aust can afford to do this because of our low population rate but US government couldnt possibly pay for everyone's tutition and ask for it later doing so the government would have to significantly raise taxes which can hurt it will hurt the economy and US citizens.

since when do trolls know anything about social skills?

Yea another smart comment by another smart person . Maybe with comments like these you should look to yourself to see who the troll is.

[Epinephrine]

BZ where do you think they'll find the money for this tuition program of yours?

Add another $200 billion to the deficit?

-Epi

[bloodzombie]

"Not income tax maybe tax on goods and services though."
-enforcer

are you really that shortsighted? how do you think people on welfare pay for their goods and services, and those taxes on said goods and services? with the money they got from welfare... they're not working for anything.

And your stuff about the government loaning money for school... they already do that. there's money out there for almost anyone that wants it, they just have to put in a little effort and find it.



Epi has the first (and only, that I can think of) good point against this. Some money could be saved by putting these kids to work on government projects, but not the amount that would be needed. I was more interested to see what everyone would think of the mandatory service idea... but yeah I think you're right, it wouldn't work in this form, because of the money issue.

[THE ENFORCER]

"
are you really that shortsighted? how do you think people on welfare pay for their goods and services, and those taxes on said goods and services? with the money they got from welfare... they're not working for anything.

Thats excatly what i said, they dont pay income tax but they pay taxes on goods and services! Why are you repeating what ive already said.

And your stuff about the government loaning money for school... they already do that. there's money out there for almost anyone that wants it, they just have to put in a little effort and find it.

I dont think so ive heard a ton of stories how parents mortgage thier house's inorder to send thier children to a good university.


Epi has the first (and only, that I can think of) good point against this.

I stated excatly what Epi said in my previous post under practicality issue where are my koodos!

Some money could be saved by putting these kids to work on government projects, but not the amount that would be needed. I was more interested to see what everyone would think of the mandatory service idea... but yeah I think you're right, it wouldn't work in this form, because of the money issue.

The money issue would be solved in the long run though. This is because if the government some how (i dont know how-read last paragraph) pays for everyone's tuition now on a loan. Then the for the next generation the government would simply use the money that they would get back from previous generation. And before you say that more and more people would be going to universities thus the money comming in by previous students wont be sufficient for the money going out. You have to remember these graduates will be making alot more (2X or 3X more) than if they didnt go to university thus the government will also recieve extra money from income tax. Maybe inorder to overcome the money problem in the first round just make this loan only available to those families that cant afford it thus place an income/asset criteria and probably raise taxes but i wouldnt raise taxes on student expenses like school books maybe just raise more taxes on cigarettes and alcohol cause you can bleed people with addication dry (not that was a joke please dont post a whole length argument telling me of the social costs of this) .

Actually if government made marjiuana legal then the government can tax this like they tax cigarettes thus can rasie more then enough money to finance this and also the marjiuana will also create alot more jobs which the government can get from more income tax.