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  • #31
    Originally posted by Disliked
    I'd hate to be in a constant state of bliss, life isn't all one-sided. Sure I loathe being depressed but it's who I am. It's certainly not something I'd wish upon my child, not allowing them to experience the full range of emotions that is. Sure the bad ones suck, but the also give the good ones meaning. I'm chatting shit again aren't I?
    H.I. Answers (couldnt be answered better):

    4. Objections.

    4.0 "Happy experiences, and the very concept of happiness itself, are possible only because they can be contrasted with melancholy. The very notion of everlasting happiness is incoherent."

    Some people endure lifelong emotional depression or physical pain. Quite literally, they are never happy. Understandably, they may blame their misery on the very nature of the world, not just their personal clinical condition. Yet it would be a cruel doctrine which pretended that such people don't really suffer because they can't contrast their sense of desolation with joyful memories. In the grips of despair, they may find the very notion of happiness cognitively meaningless. Conversely, the euphoria of unmixed (hypo)mania is not dependent for its sparkle on recollections of misery. Given the state-dependence of memory, negative emotions may simply be inaccessible to consciousness in such an exalted state. Likewise, it is possible that our perpetually euphoric descendants will find our contrastive notion of unhappiness quite literally inconceivable. For when one is extraordinarily super-well, then it's hard to imagine what it might be like to be chronically mentally ill.

    Here's a contemporary parallel. It's possible to undergo, from a variety of causes, a complete bilateral loss of primary, secondary and "associative" visual cortex. People with Anton's Syndrome not only become blind; they are unaware of their sensory deficit. Furthermore, they lose all notion of the meaning of sight. They no longer possess the neurological substrates of the visual concepts by which their past and present condition could be compared and contrasted. Our genetically joyful descendants may, or may not, undergo an analogous loss of cognitive access to the nature and variant textures of suffering. Quite plausibly, they will have gradients of sublimity to animate their lives and infuse their thoughts. So at least they'll be able to make analogies and draw parallels. But fortunately for their sanity and well-being, they won't be able to grasp the true frightfulness lying behind any linguistic remnants of the past that survive into the post-Darwinian era. Such lack of contrast, or even the inconceivability of unpleasant experiences, won't leave tomorrow's native-born ecstatics any less happy; if anything quite the reverse.

    It's true that a world whose agents are animated by pleasure gradients will still have the functional equivalent of aversive experience. Yet the "raw feel" of such states may still be more wonderful than anything physiologically possible today.
    4.7 "I'd get bored of being happy all the time. Variety is indispensable to personal well-being."

    As an empty verbalism, "perpetual bliss" does sound fairly tedious. As Bernard Shaw once remarked, "Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the seaside".

    Successful paradise-engineering, however, must be the very antithesis of tedium by its very nature. If the the prospect of paradise-engineering sounds unexciting, one has missed the point of what abolishing the substrates of tedium entails. In a different age, religious iconographers were able to derive much greater satisfaction in depicting the tortures of the wicked in Hell than in evoking the curiously anaemic delights of Heaven. Indeed, one could be forgiven for inferring that the eternal happiness of the Saved was dependent on contemplation of the eternal torment of the Damned. Likewise today, the secular equivalent of this syndrome is all too common. Potentially, however, there is no less a diversity of ways of being happy as being wretched. It is a grim reflection of the late-Darwinian human predicament that any notion of perpetual happiness evokes images of monotony. We can conjure up a rich and never-ending diet of disasters with ease.

    Whatever humanity's contemporary failures of imagination, within a few generations the experience of boredom will be neurophysiologically impossible. From a naturalistic perspective, boredom amounts to just a complex of psychophysical states whose molecular substrate natural selection has chanced upon like any other. A capacity for boredom was retained because of the adaptive value its conditional activation can confer. Its more proximate physiological basis lies in the negative feedback mechanisms underlying the development of tolerance in the brain. These may be expressed in the form either of short-term habituation or a slightly more delayed process of gene-triggered receptor re-regulation. Such mechanisms can be disabled and replaced.

    For as is experimentally demonstrable in the laboratory, the intra-cranial strategy of endless stimulation of the pleasure-centres of the brain confirms that happiness, and happiness itself alone, never palls. Out in the wider world, positive emotion just gets (re)directed to focus on and infuse a variety of intentional objects. None of our neocortical patterns is inherently nice or nasty in the absence of its distinctive signature of limbic innervation. Some of these patterns may in time cease to satisfy; stone-age love affairs are cruel. Given the mind-brain identity theory presupposed in this manifesto, however, there is no biological reason why each moment of one's existence couldn't have the impact of a breathtaking revelation. As the phenomena of déjà vu, and its rarer cousin jamais vu, strikingly attest, a sense of familiarity or novelty is dissociable from the previous presence or absence of any particular type of intentional object with which such feelings might more normally be associated. So the kind of thrill one might first have got witnessing, say, the Creation can in principle become a property of every second of one's life. Cool.
    4.9 "I don't want a lifetime of enforced ecstasy. I want the freedom sometimes to be sad, and not to be enslaved to a false chemical happiness."

    It is most unclear how to unpack the notion of "false" happiness. Contaminating the God-given purity of one's soul-stuff with alien chemicals is presumably offensive if one's self-conception is essentially spiritual in character. If, on the other hand, all states of consciousness alike are physically mediated, then it is scarcely coherent to label some neurochemical patterns as inherently false, unreal or inauthentic. Such euphoric states have indeed hitherto been largely inaccessible and genetically maladaptive if prolonged. They are still natural properties of suitably structured metabolic pathways of matter and energy. So in that sense they are all "true", though this is a most infelicitous way of putting it.

    It is not, in any case, as though anyone will plausibly be forced to be happy against their will. Just as, historically, many slaves did not challenge the institutional legitimacy of slavery, and many self-confessed sinners believed they deserved to be damned to an eternity of torment in Hell, so many people have been able to convince themselves of the ennobling quality of suffering. They will scarcely be ambushed and hauled in off the streets one day by crack-demented ecstatics and forcibly pumped full of euphoriants. A more apposite question might be what instruments of repression should a coercive State apparatus be entitled to use on behalf of possible bigoted die-hards of the old Darwinian order against people who decide, reasonably enough, that they do wish to live happily ever after. To what degree, and for how long and in what form, should authoritarian reactionaries have the right to compel others to suffer, once emotional primitivism becomes simply one life-style option amongst many?

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    • #32
      wow thats a large quotation. At the risk of sounding like a high school english teacher, "In your own words...?"
      It does use a fair amount of jargon.

      In attemped Summary: Quote1:
      Happiness without sadness is possible, those who experience it will instead experience degrees of happiness, sadness being replaced by 'content'.
      Argument against it: just like a higher contrast photograph is more beautiful than a grey one, so is a higher contrast life more fulfilling than a low contrast, ever-happy state.
      But fortunately for their sanity and well-being, they won't be able to grasp the true frightfulness lying behind any linguistic remnants of the past that survive into the post-Darwinian era.
      IE they won't be able to comprehend the sadness and depression of the past. Ignorance is bliss? Quite literally, in this case. Their own Pride will be their downfall, they will be unable to comprehend someone being sad and thus relationships with nonaltered humans (and possibly relationships with extraterrestrials in the future) will suffer, greatly so. Just cos you're happy doesn't mean you're nice

      Quote 2:
      Summary: Mainly about paradise engineering (not) being boring.
      Keyword successful, here.
      A capacity for boredom was retained because of the adaptive value its conditional activation can confer.
      Hmm, sounds ok to me. You get bored, you do something productive.
      Generalisation: the symptoms of boredom can be disabled and replaced
      So... even less incentive to do something productive?
      Given the mind-brain identity theory presupposed in this manifesto, however, there is no biological reason why each moment of one's existence couldn't have the impact of a breathtaking revelation.
      talk about your ego boost...
      "Hey wow, OMG look at that cup! So amazing... look at the way light refracts and reflects off it! Wow, and notice the way its so totally half full!"
      Being absolutly amazed at everything means you're unlikely to focus on one thing at a time, so hows anything going to get done?
      Quote3:
      Summary:
      false happiness isn't false in the literal sense.
      The writer is more worried about "instruments of repression" used by "coercive State apparatus'" on behalf of "bigoted die-hards of the old Darwinian order "
      and what right do people have to compel others to suffer once it is no longer biologically neccesary to do so?
      My Answer:
      It is not false, but it is enforced, and an inadvisably giving yourself a great weakness. If you're happy all the time, then death will not be so bad, as you know your friends/relatives will still be happy, so theres no-one you will hurt with your death, so you have virtually no survival instinct. The manic need for survival that pushes men and women onwards in Horror stories and Sci-fi last man alive stories will no longer exist, so its entirely possible for us to die out, as a race, without so much as a whimper. GG us.

      But please, next time feel free to link and quote, but "In your own words" is a good skill to have.
      and what is H.I.? The ones who are researching/pioneering paradise engineering?
      Their own information is quite likely to be biased and should not be beleived totally under its own weight. Note how they used a lot of jargon, didn't point out anything bad about it. Its quite one sided.

      Originally posted by Disliked
      Imagine a world without morals... it would be like the tw community
      +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

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      • #33
        FIRST you pillage, THEN you burn.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Theif of Time
          My Answer:
          It is not false, but it is enforced, and an inadvisably giving yourself a great weakness. If you're happy all the time, then death will not be so bad, as you know your friends/relatives will still be happy, so theres no-one you will hurt with your death, so you have virtually no survival instinct. The manic need for survival that pushes men and women onwards in Horror stories and Sci-fi last man alive stories will no longer exist, so its entirely possible for us to die out, as a race, without so much as a whimper. GG us.
          But please, next time feel free to link and quote, but "In your own words" is a good skill to have.
          My own words short and sweet: No, there are unmotivated highs like stoners who arent doing so well, and there are high states possible where motivation/drive/goal direction is actually greatly increased. When we do things and complete tasks, normally it causes dopamine release in the pleasure pathways of the mid brain which keeps us motivated and consistent. in some forms of depression or ADHD this mechanism is broken which can result in anhedonia and lack of motivation. it can be possible to create a mind state that not only gets more reward from goals, but enjoys the work its self more than we can imagine, more than the most driven and successful people are today.

          Edit: would like to add that we know this is possible from the effects of stimulants such as amphetamine on peoples drive and motivation. the problems with drugs however are there are side effects: anxiety, sleep problems, cardiac problems, tolerance, addiction. a drug isnt going to be anywhere close to perfect. its not like the drug by extraordinary coincidence is going to affect just the right receptors and just the right brain regions in just the right way and so to cause all positive effect and leave alone all mechanisms that cause negative effect. its not like the drug is going to be immune to tolerance and changing effect over a short time. if any drug works right for just one second, that means in theory that one could have that mind state 24/7 if all the factors were reproduced and stabilized. it also could mean that it could be hypothesized that there could be an even more perfect state if some of the effects of the drug were filtered out and others were accented. re-engineering our brains would be much more specific and designed than a crude substance that cant magically be perfectly selective.

          Not my own words: http://hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon4.htm#die

          4.2 "If we were always elated, we'd suffer the same fate as intra-cranially self-stimulating laboratory animals. We'd starve, or die of general self-neglect. Both physical and psychological pain do more than promote the inclusive fitness of genes. For the most part, they protect the individual organism from harm too. If a regime of universal happiness were attempted, we'd never want to have sex and reproduce. Therefore we'd become extinct as a species."
          Answer to objection here: http://hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon4.htm#die
          Last edited by Tone; 04-11-2005, 08:01 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Whoa, I'm the first to get in the 80's cheesy music reference! (Admittedly its not metal but I seem to remember she had a massive hairdo at one stage)

            Oooh baby do you know what that's worth?
            Ooh heaven is a place on earth!
            Originally posted by Facetious
            edit: (Money just PMed me his address so I can go to Houston and fight him)

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            • #36
              I didn't read most of this.

              If you really wanted to, you could probably have brain surgery and they could put a little clamp on the part of your brain that makes you feel good. It would accomplish the same thing only faster, the result, of course, would be that you'd be a big happy retard.
              http://www.trenchwars.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15100 - Gallileo's racist thread

              "Mustafa sounds like someone that likes to fly planes into buildings." -Galleleo

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              • #37
                Everybody drop acid everyday.

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                • #38
                  I did that once. It turned me stupid for about 20 weeks.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    acid doesn't necessarily make you happy anyway.
                    http://www.trenchwars.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15100 - Gallileo's racist thread

                    "Mustafa sounds like someone that likes to fly planes into buildings." -Galleleo

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      That's why you don't take it when you're depressed or feeling bad. But in Tone's case, just take it everyday for the rest of your life, please.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by genocidal
                        That's why you don't take it when you're depressed or feeling bad. But in Tone's case, just take it everyday for the rest of your life, please.
                        that wouldnt be good. nor is the wide spread over-prescribed use of the exact opposite, anti-psychotic medications.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tone
                          that wouldnt be good. nor is the wide spread over-prescribed use of the exact opposite, anti-psychotic medications.
                          Will you please copy/paste an article for us all about anti-psychotic drugs so we can assume more about your opinions that we care a lot about?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by genocidal
                            Will you please copy/paste an article for us all about anti-psychotic drugs so we can assume more about your opinions that we care a lot about?
                            i see a lot of people replayed to this very strange thread, seems the concept of future mind-states (a mind-state is the center of our very reality) was interesting.

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                            • #44
                              Good job tone good job another wierd thread..... SCREW PARADISE WE ALREADY HAVE IT Technology brings us paradise. Besides god would crush us like a bug, if we had paradise.

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