Abortion

[Lucon]

My point is that people can have different reasons that shape their decisions in any given situation. You have a set of reasons that allow you to make a rational decision. Someone else in the same situation may have reasons of his own that are equally valid though differ from yours. They allow him to make a decision that is also different from yours. You can't sit back and call them irrational because they are working with a different set of circumstances.

Rationality is using the knowledge that you have to make a decision. But if someone has knowledge that differs from yours then he will make a different decision. Just because it differs from your result doesn't mean it's any less rational.

Your 2+2 analogy is flawed, not because it's simplistic but because it's based on there being one and only one "true" solution. The situation we're looking isn't a matter of there being a universal truth.

Okay, I get what your point is, but in that case, I just have more knowledge than anyone else in this specific subject, that is, morality.

[Troll King]

It's not about having more or less knowledge or of being more or less rational that someone else. It's about having different knowledge.

Now stop being such a condescending twit.

[K2Grey]

Why is one's own happiness the only rational reason for performing an act? Or, why is one's own happiness on a superior level than the happiness of someone else?

You seem to be assuming "the only rational purpose of an action is self-happiness" and I would like to hear your arguments on why this is the case.

[DoTheFandango]

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING IDIOTS.

Let the people do what they want. It's a free fucking country.
IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTIONS, DON'T GET THEM.

[syzygy]

to think, this all started from the topic of abortion. it really must be bad.

[Lucon]

It's not about having more or less knowledge or of being more or less rational that someone else. It's about having different knowledge.

Now stop being such a condescending twit.

But they don't even have real knowledge, they're just acting based on preconceived notions, their superegos, and in many cases, sacred text written by liars and lunatics thousands of years ago. I finally understand what you're saying, and it actually does apply in most cases, but not this one.

Edit: Let me elaborate even further.

You're talking about how anyone could come to conlusions that could be considered logical with the information given to them for certain things. Things like whether a tax would be beneficial or hurtful to the economy, whether we should serve chicken or pork at the party, or whether allocating a certain number of resources into more effective hiring procedures would reduce profit. Now, these are all yes/no examples, but there could be an infinite number of examples, yes/no or otherwise. In all of them, one could rationally come to either conclusion looking at different information, interpreting the information differently, or simply having differen't preconceived notions.

However, it's a different matter entirely for most philosophical questions. You'll notice that in pretty much any example you could give like the ones in the last paragraph, it has to do with a value-analysis, a prediction, or something else that could easily be one way or the other. But with the stuff I'm talking about, it's not the way things could be, it's the way things are. That's the key difference. The reason people disagree isn't because there could easily be different answers, but because their judgement is clouded by things like their superegos, religions, or the other thing I mentioned earlier, I forget what it was and am extremely lazy.

[syzygy]

1. don't bring religion into this. you'll make it worse on yourself.
2. your arrogance doesn't prove anything.
3. i'm going to sleep

[Squeezer]

If you think for one second that 14 year olds are going to keep their pants on you're dumb. Guys want sex, and girls want to be liked. It happens. Do you believe they think about the maturity associated with sex? No, they do it cause it feels good and so they can brag to their friends. Teens do get a cop out murder btw, they aren't tried as adults because they aren't of adult mind. Why do you think there are age limits on things? Kids aren't supposed to smoke until they're 19 and can 'make that decision for themselves'. Yet surprise, it happens anyways.

Well, if you think that they should get off Scott Free, then you're dumb.

Make people accountable for their actions, that's all I'm saying.

By your methods, I could do whatever I want, and blame it on some other source, never taking responsability for my actions.

What a fucking world.

[Epinephrine]

+3 forum points to Lucon for successfully trolling this thread.

[Lucon]

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to prove a point. When I troll, I get people mad enough that they call for a ban. (I've yet to do that here)

[Kolar]

Well, if you think that they should get off Scott Free, then you're dumb.

Make people accountable for their actions, that's all I'm saying.

By your methods, I could do whatever I want, and blame it on some other source, never taking responsability for my actions.

What a fucking world.

You can't use straight-through logic here Squeezer. You're dealing with a new life and the future of two others, you can't applying simple accountability to every 14 year old who has sex and gets pregnant. Taking responibility is deciding to keep the child, give it up or have an abortion, either choice is mentally and emotionally crippling experience so there's no easy route to take here. This does NOT rationalize abortion though so it is a moot point within this discussion.
I don't think a majority of the people on this thread are mature enough to discuss the topic.

[froedrick]

Well, if you think that they should get off Scott Free, then you're dumb.

Make people accountable for their actions, that's all I'm saying.

By your methods, I could do whatever I want, and blame it on some other source, never taking responsability for my actions.

What a fucking world.

That's not what I was saying Squeez and you know it. It's not like they should be 'Condemned' to have the child. It should be there choice, and I personally believe it's not going to be great for a child to be raised by one.

[Bioture]

It's a free fucking country.

What's so free about it?

[Doc Flabby]

Who said murder was a bad thing?

The debate about whether abortion is right or wrong is largly irrelevent.
Its already here (its too late to ask questions about the morality of it) now we have to deal with it.

The problem with outlawing abortion is that it would still happen. Although i disagree with the idea of abortion in some respects. I would rather have it done by professionals with the correct support mechanisms in place (medically & mentally), than in a backstreet by a quack.

[Tone]

Who said murder was a bad thing?

The debate about whether abortion is right or wrong is largly irrelevent.
Its already here (its too late to ask questions about the morality of it) now we have to deal with it.

The problem with outlawing abortion is that it would still happen. Although i disagree with the idea of abortion in some respects. I would rather have it done by professionals with the correct support mechanisms in place (medically & mentally), than in a backstreet by a quack.

right and wrong is determining which action leads to reduction/elimination of suffering and/or increased pleasure. all things lead to pleasure/pain net balance therefore there is no other logical determination of right and wrong. all other determinations such as natural law would be opinion and place wellbeing second or not consider it at all (example: natural law being against homosexuality does nothing but causes suffering for homosexuals who do nothing to anyone else, and thus is unethical, the exact opposite of what it claims to be, Ethics) . since wellbeing level is the ultimate conseqeunce of every thought and action, nothing else exists as objective determination. the reduction of suffering is first priority followed by the enhancement of pleasure. abortion prevents suffering and is therefore ethical and right, in many cases very clearly so, such as genetic abnormalities, rape, unwanted or unprepared for child, potential child waiting for adoption.

- Tone