religion, part 8.782

[Bioture]

What? You make no sense, this debate's going to be exceptional

As exceptional as Manchester United

[ZeUs!!]

Point proven

[Bioture]

I love you.

[DoTheFandango]

I just took a shit, and I think it made me a believer.

[Hydride]

There are 3 heavens:
The earth, the stars, and the one we cannot see

If you accept jesus as your savoir and believe god came down through jesus you shall go to heaven

I alsoi believe that only 200K of ALL people born go to heaven, the rest stay on a paradise earth where everyone is happen and you grow into your prime age and stay that age

EDIT: I am not totally sure about this i may have mis-read it:

But did god not say he will come back to Earth when the end of the world is about to come? and i think that if this is true, the end of the world is near. The earliest Tornado was in the last 10 years, and the lastest also. God said do not fear because these things have to happen, and people may die but it has to happen before God comes back to Earth

[Theif of Time]

Please don't say you're one of those who believe in the Rapture...

[genocidal]

The earth is 5000 years old.

[DoTheFandango]

+/- Seven Days

[Bioture]

Umm same goes for you ??? If you choose to believe and try and convert ppl what gives you that authority??
What doesn't give me the right to state my opinion?
There is no authority at all, everyone makes there own minds up with what evidence and knowledge they have. Many claim to be right, you seem to be taking my dogmatic line making light of this fact and over analysing it. If you ppl get to quote the bible as if it all happened i get to talk as if what i say is the abosolute truth too.

You're still evading the question, I'm asking - who are you specifically and where do you get your authority? Keep in mind I'm asking a question specifically for YOU and not at nonbelievers or believers as a whole. Can you, Pressure Drop, some guy on TW forums, tell me who you are and how you assumed authority?

I'm agnostic, i'm not claiming to have all the answers at all, but religion is wrong one way or another they all say something about divine influence that can never be proved or disproved since divine powers are apperantly not bound by the laws of science or logic we know so how can you argue with it?

>Jesus came back from the dead 3 days after he died.
<Well thats impossible given their technology.
>NOT FOR THE SON OF GOD ITS NOT!!!!
<debate ended.

Is it really as simplistic as you pointed out though? Again, where do you get the authority to say religion (let alone spirituality) is THE wrong way? Also, since it seems like I can't make you question the validity of your own claims, are you here to ask me questions so you can learn something, or so you can prove a point - not the point of athiests, agnostics, or whoever - but YOUR point.

it was you that brought in the parent anology.
I ment that why do you believe that a GOD would answer the prayer of one women who prayed for her husbands safety during the war and not the other. Was one a better christian?

What would you say is a good Christian, who -deserves- their prayers answered, as opposed to a bad one who doesn't deserve such grace? Since I've came to Christ there has been countless people who grew closer to God as a result of losing a loved one. But did they deserve to lose their loved one so they can grow closer to God? C.S. Lewis once said that God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains. But enough about other people - who has wronged you enough in this world to make you feel as if God doesn't care?

It doesn't make sense. but oooo god works in mysterious ways ... its all a nonsense used to pander easy answers to questions that show that it is flawed.

I can argue that it's even easier to say that God doesn't exist. But you know what? It doesn't get us anywhere. And I can argue that it's easier to say that God doesn't exist from an athiest's point of view too. But which one will help you see the ignorance of your own statements? I don't think that it's possible to talk about it intellectually unless we're both willing to accept that our convictions, however strong, are up to scruitiny.

[Bioture]

i said "less selfish". you cant deny that enjoying helping other people is les selfish than helping other people to get to the afterlife. i think it's a pretty warped world view to think that literally everything everyone does is selfish, but go for it, i guess.

Is that what I said? or are you assuming? I posed the question to you personally, how "less selfish" do you think you are in saying that your worldview trumps another in a world of differences? All I can say is, the afterlife, heaven, nirvana, whatever you want to call it, should not be the ultimate goal of a christian life. The ultimate goal SHOULD be obedience. Let me ask you - did Jesus help others get to the afterlife, or did he simply just help other people and -asked- people to follow him?

i'm just trying to understand why christians have different rules for people they know than for their god. everyone knows the type of girl that only hangs out with people if they actively worship her, and most everyone hates those bitches. expecting people to constantly praise you, in general, is not a hallmark of a good person. whats the difference? why isnt this a bad thing just because its god? well, i answered my own question. "just because its god"... still, though, if you could elaborate further it would help me understand.

Well, the simplist answer you just answered. But lets look at this another way. If we assume for the time being that a God can be omniscent, omnipotent, and omnipresent, what can he possibly want from us? It's not so much the human reactions that He has for what we do, but the reactions we have for Him, once you know Him.

its really hard for me to communicate with you when you take normal words and use them in religious context. i really have no idea what you mean by "flawless"...

Flawless, sinless, without blemishes, no error of thought and action. Sorry if I assumed you knew what flawless meant - I assumed that it meant practically the same thing in a secular context.

secondly, i wasnt asking how many church-goers were bad people, despite going to church. i was asking how many of them do you think discuss jesus and think of jesus the way you do. for that matter, are you only this religious on the forums, or do you talk to your friends about god the way you have in this thread?

Quite honestly, there are very few Christians who are capable of talking about their faith without getting very strongly attached emotionally to the subject. I founded an apologetics group here at Penn State, and the funny thing is out of the approximately 12k christians ithat are in the fellowships, there has been no attempts to personalize outreaching beyond handing out pamphlets and saying "jesus loves you." (We're the only apologetics group, ever) So for your question, I don't know what you mean by "religious" but I do defend my faith in an intelligent way because I know many people have intellectual barriers that can't be answered with "jesus loves you." I enjoy defending my faith in person, online, wherever I'm given the opportunity. But a lot of times I feel as if I'm doing this in vain because there are people out there (like pressure drop) who dosen't want an intelligent conversation, but rather to just attack religion as a whole. In those situations, it's probably better to walk away because no one is getting anything except unsettled emotions.

sorry, i was trying to respect that you had a different opinion about a fact, so i said "i think". it is a FACT that there is an infintesimal chance that the christian god exists exactly as you view him. happy? yes, i do have hope that the country can be saved. and this thread was started because im trying to understand christians without having to offend the people i know in real life, and therefore im finding out why.

I guess thats where our worlds crash into each other. If the people you know get offended easily because you ask them questions about christianity, tell them I said, "what would jesus do?" Honestly, just because a person is "Christian" does not mean he follows all the doctrine. Christians are still human, for crying out loud, we still avoid conflict, ignore questions we can't answer, and reject what we believe is false.

i said earlier that i dont blame the vast majority of churchgoers for our country's problems. do i blame robertson, falwell, etc? fuck yes. i'm not entirely sure how you can say, point blank, that i dont do anything to help anybody. its been said a lot on these forums, but, you dont know me. and, as i said, the only reason i have to criticize your doctrine is because of the way it is being misinterpreted in this country. i have no doubt that the vast majority of jesus's teachings are positive, i dont understand how on earth you believe the stuff, but i think its a lot better to believe in god and act as a good person than not believe and be a shithead.

I agree with you 100% on misinterpretation. But then again we are talking about people who are leaders of the free world who have no concept of the sociohistorical, sociocultural, and sociopsychological implications of religious doctrines on people.

i dont understand this, and i also dont understand the prayer answer disliked offers. "prayer works all the time, unless god wants to not answer your prayer." that means prayer doesnt work all the time!

Well, I'm not going to dissect his understanding of prayer, but for me God does answer all prayers. It just means that His answer, believe it or not, can be a "no" or "wait" or "are you kidding me?" (jk) Just because I prayed to God with 100% conviction right now that I really needed a new car, would he drop one on my lap? I don't think so. Likewise with praying for a perfect world, or an easy way out of a situation. However, since God is omniscent (let's assume that He is) if I were to ask him for the strength and perseverence to continue working hard at my job so I can get a new car, would He still say no? The kinds of question we ask, and the context in which we ask them, are very important.

[Bioture]

But did god not say he will come back to Earth when the end of the world is about to come? and i think that if this is true, the end of the world is near. The earliest Tornado was in the last 10 years, and the lastest also. God said do not fear because these things have to happen, and people may die but it has to happen before God comes back to Earth

Well, this is getting into the "meat" of christianity, but don't concern yourself with when God will come back to earth. Don't be concerned with how many people are going to heaven or staying on earth or going to hell. Just know that in this life, not one sheep will be lost, for you are in Christ. God has accounted for everything.

[Bioture]

Haven't read everything yet because I haven't had the time yet.

But the only fact about jesus is that he was alive once. There are no facts about him being the son of god, healing people, dieing for our sins. I know it's a fact that he once lived. But for all I know he was just someone with a very big mouth, a very persuasive person who got alot of followers, like Pim Fortuyn (maybe only a good example for the dutch).

Well Gall, I'm going to give you the most common apologetics answer, so sorry if you've heard this before. But first, where do you get your information about "no facts about him being the son of god, healing people, dieing (dying) for our sins?" Is this a personal belief, or do you have some sort of backing to this? "For all I know" is the single worst thing you can say when debating religion. If you want an intellectual conversation, please find out what your authorities are.

But anyway, on to the answer...
Let's assume that the gospels about Jesus are true (we can discuss later about their validity). If they are true, then we can look at Jesus. As a person, who would really do what he did? If we believed that Jesus told the truth, then He is a savior. If he was lying there are two options. Either he knew he was lying, which is unlikely because who would go to such an extent for a lie, or he didn't know he was lying and he was a lunatic.

Jesus didn't give us a choice of depicting him as a human or a moral teacher. And honestly I don't think He intended to.

[Galleleo]

the only "proof" of jesus healing people and whatnot is in the bible..

The proof that jesus has actually lived is also in roman writing and stuff, that is a fact, jesus has lived. But besides the bible nowhere is their evidence about him healing people and whatnot, and I don't trust nor believe the bible.

So, to me, the only fact is that he once lived, and if I remember correctly, I read that he didn't even live around where the bible said he lived (timewise).
Oh, and the "for all I know" wasn't meant as an argument, it was to show that no one really knows what he did, so for all I know, he just had a big mouth, he did this, or that.. etc. to get so known.

[ZeUs!!]

I love you.

You're trying to ridicule my point by continually agreeing with it and out-weirding me until the point has been completely lost and you lose the will to post stupid responses/I lose the desire to provoke you to post stupid responses. This isn't reflecting too kindly on your internet crusade

[iLDuce]

You're trying to ridicule my point by continually agreeing with it and out-weirding me until the point has been completely lost and you lose the will to post stupid responses/I lose the desire to provoke you to post stupid responses. This isn't reflecting too kindly on your internet crusade

Yeah, I called him a hypocrite on AIM for acting the same way towards me. His response was to block me- a sublime example of the way a self-proclaimed Christian should act, I suppose.