religion, part 8.782

[Verthanthi]

Wired did a report on this a while back, there have been a few double-blind experiments with prayer healing that have shown positive results. An interesting point, however, is that many, many faiths were involved.

[ConcreteSchlyrd]

You do realize that some people see the Bible as a work of fiction, right? I know that religious people like to go back to the old "you can't handle MY truth" argument, but it seems like they totally discount that scientific truth (note the absence of quotes) can be proved physically. That's it's whole point.

[ZeUs!!]

Like you would know something about relevance. I'll see you on juice chat.

What? You make no sense, this debate's going to be exceptional

[Pressure Drop]

But you didn't answer my question. You can keep attacking my religion all you want, but my question is still, who are you (in the microcosm of this universie) and what authority do you have to make judgments on the sensibility of religious and spiritual matters?

Umm same goes for you ??? If you choose to believe and try and convert ppl what gives you that authority??
What doesn't give me the right to state my opinion?
There is no authority at all, everyone makes there own minds up with what evidence and knowledge they have. Many claim to be right, you seem to be taking my dogmatic line making light of this fact and over analysing it. If you ppl get to quote the bible as if it all happened i get to talk as if what i say is the abosolute truth too.

I'm agnostic, i'm not claiming to have all the answers at all, but religion is wrong one way or another they all say something about divine influence that can never be proved or disproved since divine powers are apperantly not bound by the laws of science or logic we know so how can you argue with it?

>Jesus came back from the dead 3 days after he died.
<Well thats impossible given their technology.
>NOT FOR THE SON OF GOD ITS NOT!!!!
<debate ended.

My belief is, not a single sheep will be lost. For example, why do you say "favor one child over another?" Do you believe that my God, whom you don't believe in, has only a limited amount of time/love/concern, and therefore not everyone is Christian?



Just because a prayer is answered, it doesn't mean your requests will be fulfilled. If God says no, or better yet, wait, would you shun him as an ineffectual God with limits, or would you trust that He probably knows more about you than you think?

When your little brother or cousin asks for help in something you know they're capable of, would it be better to do it for them, or let them figure it out themselves while you cheer them on?

it was you that brought in the parent anology.
I ment that why do you believe that a GOD would answer the prayer of one women who prayed for her husbands safety during the war and not the other. Was one a better christian?

If its all part of gods great plan that the husband was to die, then why bother praying?

It doesn't make sense. but oooo god works in mysterious ways ... its all a nonsense used to pander easy answers to questions that show that it is flawed.

[Saturn V]

If those three people were still alive, I would probably concur.

Yeah, and the photoelectric effect died with Einstein. Oh, and Pressure Drop, check here. I asked similar prayer questions and never received an answer that satisfied me (I guarantee I never will, either).

[The Hawk]

Okay, first off, i didnt read half of that, but when are you dumbfucks funna realize that religeon is complete bullshit.... Give me proof of any religeon being true and will beli... o shit wait i wont even finish that because THEIR IS NO PROOF BECAUSE RELIGEON IS A LOAD OF SHIT. Goddamn the only reason is around is because people long ago used it as an explantion for how we are here and what we're here for because they wanted a reason to belive in... When are people finally gunna stop listening to what their parents are saying and actually think about it be4 you say "o i belive in god".. you have no idea how many people say their parens "make Them" belive in their religeon..also in science, i have dumbfucks who say they belive in god yet they belive in the big bang theory, YOU CANT BELIVE IN BOTH..

[1ight]

I was not born a Christian myself,...

You are not born Christian, its a individual/personal choice to follow Jesus Christ, to give your life to Him and serve Him. Its a choice in life, that only you can make, as I said. And only you and no-one else can make this choice, also you're the only one that can keep on believing and following the Lord, our redeemer, the salavtion.

So its not something someone can come and touch you on your shoulder and say: haha, you are a Christian now. : o

[Send]

Okay, first off, i didnt read half of that, but when are you dumbfucks funna realize that religeon is complete bullshit.... Give me proof of any religeon being true and will beli... o shit wait i wont even finish that because THEIR IS NO PROOF BECAUSE RELIGEON IS A LOAD OF SHIT. Goddamn the only reason is around is because people long ago used it as an explantion for how we are here and what we're here for because they wanted a reason to belive in... When are people finally gunna stop listening to what their parents are saying and actually think about it be4 you say "o i belive in god".. you have no idea how many people say their parens "make Them" belive in their religeon..also in science, i have dumbfucks who say they belive in god yet they belive in the big bang theory, YOU CANT BELIVE IN BOTH..

Birthday:
December 21, 1990

You talk of how people had religion such as the Bible in the past because they didn't understand their surroundings, and used the Bible as a way to explain things that they didn't understand. You may be right on that, actually, because the Bible did map everything out quite accurately. The Bible was made long before scientific research took place, we didn't have microscopes, camera, anything. Yet the Bible somehow knew multiple hygiene facts ahead of time.

Gen. 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed.

The eighth day for the circumcision wasn't picked out on random, a blood clotting vitamin called K2 isn't made in a baby's intestines in sufficient amounts until the 5th, or 7th day. The second element needed for blood clotting is prothrombin. The elements decrase for the first few days in a baby's life until the eighth day, which it spurts to a maximum level, after which it evens out. The process of circumcision on the eighth day helps even it out faster and more efficiently.

Isa 40:22. [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Remember, this has gotta be more than a thousand years before Magellan.

I also stumbled upon this amazing excerpt from the Bible which accurately predicted the destruction of a city:

The two great cities of Phoenicia were Tyre and Sidon. Ezekiel as a captive in Babylon made some very specific predictions about the seacoast metropolis of Tyre. In Ezekiel 26 and 27 the destruction of Tyre was given in detail (592-570BC)

Ezek 26:3. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Ezek 26:4. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Ezek 26:5. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it] saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

Ezek 26:7. For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Ezek 26:12. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

Ezek 26:14. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it] saith the Lord GOD.

Nebuchadnezzar came against Tyre in 585 BC (fulfilling vs 26:7). The siege lasted until 573 BC. When he broke down the gates of the city he found most of the population had escaped by ship to a city they had built on an island about a half mile out into the sea.

Sometime after defeating the Persians in a battle in 333BC, Alexander III in a southern campaign demolished old Tyre and used the materials and dirt (fulfilling verse 26:4) to build a causeway to the new city which had been built out in the water. After a long siege, the island city was destroyed and the materials cast into the sea (fulfilling 26:12).

Eighteen years after Alexander's defeat of Tyre on the island, Antigonus laid siege to the city and again destroyed it. The Moslems were next to win and occupy it for a time but were defeated by the Roman Crusaders. Still later, the Moslems again retook and utterly destroyed the city with a vengeance, seeming to hate the very stones on which the Crusaders walked. All these "waves" of conquerors fulfilled vs 26:3.

Today, Tyre is literally a place for local fishermen to spread their nets to dry. The proud commercial seaport of ancient Tyre has never been rebuilt (fulfilling vs 26:5 and 14) 5.

Numerous other cities could be cited about which series of prophecies to minute detail were fulfilled. Only a few more of the Bible references will be given here to complete the point:

Read this too, quite interesting: http://www.100prophecies.org/page1.htm

Biblical excerpts explained and advised things for us to do thousands of years ago, before any technology was seen on the face of the planet! The biblical prophecies that have come true, such as in the previous link I gave you...they were calculated by a professor and each of them had insane amount of chances to occur, some one out of ten to the exponent of seventy. There's your proof for religion.

[Galleleo]

The fact is (and we can debate this) Jesus died for our sins.

Haven't read everything yet because I haven't had the time yet.

But the only fact about jesus is that he was alive once. There are no facts about him being the son of god, healing people, dieing for our sins. I know it's a fact that he once lived. But for all I know he was just someone with a very big mouth, a very persuasive person who got alot of followers, like Pim Fortuyn (maybe only a good example for the dutch).

[Kolar]

Predicting the future is wrong/sinful to christians Send aswell there are bigger gaps between what the bible says and what really is true on Earth. People that take the bible literally end up mixing up their preceptions of their surrondings. Nothing is know though faith, you believe in something therefore it is real to you. Science attempts to go deeper through observation and testing.
The bible is a religious text with bits of history (mostly factually wrong) but provides a set of stories and 'rules' to live your life by that is meant to make you a better person. Organizing this and having it become more important then that life is where it becomes a cult and detrimental to the people and societies.

Believing in God is an entirely different thing from Religion although one leads to another easily. Believing in God to me is your simple chicken and the egg problem, if someone or some process didn't make our universe or the surronding universes that brought it into exitstance then I dont know how it happened, it's beyond me. I don't allow that to close my mind to the possibilities because humans are very basic and primitive, it's like closing the door on the subject but I can see how it does make some people more stable.. thinking/believing in something.

[Send]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Theif of Time]

Send: Re Circumcision:

Trial and Error. They had a long time to get it right: once they had it, it became tradition.

And no, they didn't explain many things. In the light of modern technology and thinking, they appear to have (Oh, and PLEASE, no-one bring up the Pi-in-the-first-chapter-of-Genesis shit.)
Its wishful thinking from a biased mindset, no more.

EDIT:
Re- the Tyre prophecies. Some scholars believe that, due to discrepancies in the text, the "prophecy" was written AFTER the event. So, thats no prophecy, thats history. Many more don't think it was written after, but very close to the event, ie: when an army was about to lay siege, and victory was certain.

[Kolar]

Interpreting anything/trying to predict the future is still predicting the future. It is consider magick... sorcery... things generally done by "evil" to Christians.

There is no evidence that anyone but humans made these books and if you want to ignore that there was an acual council that decided what went into it.

Inconsistencies in dates and what we know today among many things shows that the books have little or no historical significance. There can be some things to look over but mainly the gaps between fact, faith and the bible are too wide to consider anything of it.

Our minds basically shut down on infinity, but I as well question my own faith. Questioning, however, strengthens faith. I hope someday we will the answers.

It stengthens both out looks. I look forward to when we answer these questions. I like that people are looking for these answers but you have to respect both preservatives otherwise all we have are people defending their beliefs, not questioning them.

[Facetious]

You said "enjoy other peoples happiness" isn't that a selfish reason?

i said "less selfish". you cant deny that enjoying helping other people is les selfish than helping other people to get to the afterlife. i think it's a pretty warped world view to think that literally everything everyone does is selfish, but go for it, i guess.

But if thats your secular worldview, I can't convince you beyond your shadow of a doubt if you're already convicted, right? But who are you to say how God "should" act?

i'm just trying to understand why christians have different rules for people they know than for their god. everyone knows the type of girl that only hangs out with people if they actively worship her, and most everyone hates those bitches. expecting people to constantly praise you, in general, is not a hallmark of a good person. whats the difference? why isnt this a bad thing just because its god? well, i answered my own question. "just because its god"... still, though, if you could elaborate further it would help me understand.

Sadly, there are a good amount of church-goers that do not practice the values thought by the bible. My question to you is this: under what authority do any of us have to determine whether or not anyone is acting out of Christ? How close do you think a normal person could ever get to being flawless?

its really hard for me to communicate with you when you take normal words and use them in religious context. i really have no idea what you mean by "flawless"...

secondly, i wasnt asking how many church-goers were bad people, despite going to church. i was asking how many of them do you think discuss jesus and think of jesus the way you do. for that matter, are you only this religious on the forums, or do you talk to your friends about god the way you have in this thread?

FACTS are facts. It's not a FACT if you have to -think- that it's a fact, right? If you have FAITH that the country is screwed, then you also have hope that it can be saved, right? If you FEEL that the church/gov't/media is a controversy, then its up to you to find out WHY, right?

sorry, i was trying to respect that you had a different opinion about a fact, so i said "i think". it is a FACT that there is an infintesimal chance that the christian god exists exactly as you view him. happy? yes, i do have hope that the country can be saved. and this thread was started because im trying to understand christians without having to offend the people i know in real life, and therefore im finding out why.

As a previous athiest, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is easy to scapegoat religion and spirituality because it's something that you don't possess. It's easy to point your finger at religion, and use it as a vessel to magnify discontent. If there is a "selfless" act, if you enjoy helping other people, then help them! If you want to make the world a better place, then do it! If you think people are ignorant, then educate them! I don't understand how you can be convicted in your beliefs, much like I'm convicted in mine, but not do anything to show for them and then point out the problems with another doctrine.

As Jesus said, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? - Matthew 7:3. Do you think he was bullshitting, or maybe he was referring to our very human nature?

i said earlier that i dont blame the vast majority of churchgoers for our country's problems. do i blame robertson, falwell, etc? fuck yes. i'm not entirely sure how you can say, point blank, that i dont do anything to help anybody. its been said a lot on these forums, but, you dont know me. and, as i said, the only reason i have to criticize your doctrine is because of the way it is being misinterpreted in this country. i have no doubt that the vast majority of jesus's teachings are positive, i dont understand how on earth you believe the stuff, but i think its a lot better to believe in god and act as a good person than not believe and be a shithead.

And keep in mind that just because God doesn't approve, it doesn't mean that it's happening without a reason.

i dont understand this, and i also dont understand the prayer answer disliked offers. "prayer works all the time, unless god wants to not answer your prayer." that means prayer doesnt work all the time!

[Mulkero]

A Good example of religious people in my city is the Laestadian movement. They believe that any kind of use of birth control is sinful, as is watching tv. So generally, they're dumb as fuck. They make 20 children (until the mother is too old to give birth) and don't know anything what's happening in the world with a few exceptions of course. What do you think what happens when someone has 20 children, do they have the time to raise them properly? No, they become dumber and dumber. The last ones are known to be the very dumbest. Anyway, everybody goes to same schools in Finland, so I've seen these people A LOT in my younger days. These guys used to beat up everybody because they spend a lot of time doing hard work as a child and cannot win a debates by talking. Frankly, I don't see any of them in the university. I know a few cases where someone has abandonded the religion (laestadianism) and been rejected by their family.

While these people are quite common in this area, most of Finnish people are not that religious. Majority are members of the church, but they don't go there, they don't read or follow the bible. In Finland, being a member basically means that you have to donate about 1-2% of your income to the church by tax. It's not common that someone talks about religion anywhere. Not in school, not in work, nowhere. It's not considered a good subject I guess. But when someone opens their mouth about god, it's quite sure that the person will get weird looks. However, there are obligatory religion courses in school, but they're very open minded, not centered around christianity or any else religion and concerns a lot of ethical questions (at least all the courses I've had to take).

That's where Finland differs from the US. Religion is not a big thing here. I don't have a very strong opinion about religion even though I dislike everything that has to do with it. It's not like smoking in public which I hate. Smokers produce a lot of smoke which can be harmful and annoying to non-smokers. Religious people can do their own stuff and they do it out of sight and even though (in my opinion) religious people are not the brightest ones, I don't mind them being around if they're not talking. Therefore I respect their beliefs and (usually) I keep my mouth shut about it.