ATTN: foreigners RE: USA

[Eric is God]

..

[Subjugation]

Maybe, but it didn't help that the Dems put Kerry out there. I can't believe that windy-assed douchebag couldn't close the deal. Why can't the Democratic party actually put someone on stage that can succinctly verbalize the bullshit that is going on and vow to stop it? I'm thinking a decent military background, pandering to the Evangelicals (or at least enough to split 'em), and some straight-talk and charisma is all it would take.

Oh, yea....that, and don't be black, Jewish, or Catholic.

[Facetious]

I'm mad at every single American who hasn't exercised their right to vote. What have your turnouts been in the last 4 elections? That's inexcusable when the issues are this important. People with right wing views are more likely to vote, studies have proven this. If the majority of Americans do not approve of their government, every one of them should have been compaigning against the current government.

You don't know who those Americans are, though. Hating all Americans automatically just makes the problem worse. Canadians (and other militarily inactive liberal foreign nations) have a reputation for being stuck-up and smug. I don't expect all Canadians to act that way just because a lot of them do, it just doesn't do any good. Some Canadians don't act like that, and I give the rest of Canada the benefit of the doubt. However, when someone like you just starts talking shit about all Americans it just reenforces the stereotype, and the politically neutral people end up joining the right-wing in hating more politically progressive countries.

The truth of the matter is that many people are stupid everywhere. In this country, people are rich enough that the stupid become conservative in order to keep their money, which turns the tide to the religious right. In other countries, the stupid have a much harder time becoming rich, and they vote liberally so that they can go to the doctor. The fact that American poor people don't vote often is a big problem, but it's hard to blame them for not seeing a difference between two different types of smarmy politicians given the lack of information that is provided to them. Nevermind the fact that it is made significantly harder to vote in poor and predominantly minority communities throughout the country.

It's a more complicated situation than just "Americans voted for Bush so they suck" or "Americans didn't vote, which caused Bush to get elected, so they suck." I strongly believe that if you took Canadians, or Fins, or whoever, and put them in our shoes, you'd find that ones that ended up rich wouldn't be as altruistic as you imagine, the poor wouldn't vote, and the people in the middle would complain a lot but have a hard time finding exactly how they can affect the political process in a meaningful way, just like we do. People are people, your country as a whole isn't any smarter or more morally guided than mine.

By the way, you seem like a decent guy, I'm just addressing the comments you made in this thread, I'm not saying in general you are stuck-up or smug.

[Kolar]

Hating all Americans automatically just makes the problem worse.

If Bush was elected by a good majority (lets say 65%+) then I would have general grievances with your country as a democratic nation, it's not anti-american, it's a political opinion also. That not being the case I think you and I can find a general dislike of the parties and groups out there in power and causing a rift in the unity of not only the United States but in the west. All of that said, you might want to fix said problem before the public perception of the US goes down even more for the good of your country, mine and the world. Fundamentalist, war hungry assholes and some pretty sick people have captured your Government. So in the next few years it would be expected those problems and people be taken care of, else having a problem with America and everyone of her people will be fully justified and expressed.

[Facetious]

Yeah, but just because I happened to be born here I've got to go fix it? Why don't you come down here and come fix the problem yourself? If you lived here you probably wouldn't do much about it, you'd still have to have a job or go to school and goof off and deal with a girlfriend or whatever. The solution to the problem isn't simple. Yeah, I vote, but my vote doesn't count, essentially, because I live in a state that votes republican every year. I could go run around like a jackass and wave signs and protest, but that doesn't accomplish anything except making liberals look stupid, either. When I'm older I can and most likely will have a job that's somewhat politically involved, or if I don't, it'll be because I'm making a bunch of money, and I can donate to political causes. Right now, though, shit. It's tough.

What's bad for our country is bad for yours, our political issues are obviously a world issue. If you're going to hate Americans for not "fixing the problem" you should take issue with yourself for not "fixing the problem" yourself either. You can do anything I can do to help. Badmouthing all Americans, or, for that matter, to plan to badmouth all Americans in a few years, is only going to promote (understandably) Americans hating foreigners. It compounds the problem, and it's not a solution.

[genocidal]

Responses to post #1: I read more foreign news than domestic - which only makes sense considering the massive amount of sources outside of the US compared to within. Regulars include the NY Times (everyday), google news (everyday, which covers various periodicals), The Economist (weekly), Newsweek (weekly, I got a free subscription), and then various other ones like Strait Times and South China Morning Post that I perouse when I'm very bored and have time (not so often lately).

How much non American media do you watch? We don't have people like Nancy Grace, Anderson Cooper, Bill O'Reilly (or one other guy on CNN I hate) who are less news people then tv evangelists. I odn't think it's necessary to point out the ego in your post, but exactly how many other countries have you lived in or even visited? Do you truly believe that all these people from Germany, Finland, the UK and Canada envy America or would like to live there? America is respected for it's military and economic power, but unless those are the two keys to a happy life and a stable society, I don't think people in these other countries feel like America's "bitch".

I don't know where I ever said that people from other countries want to live in America. I also don't know where the ego was other than in the "bitch status" comment which is true enough to be void of most arrogance. You can't deny that certain countries willingly or not perform the will of the US because of its economic and otherwise incentives.

I also never said that there aren't problems in the current administration. Of course there are, but people who don't live here overstating and hyperbolizing facts, mostly in ignorance, that most Americans already know isn't particularly helpful. For example, people in this thread have stated that they believe that the US will or will likely ban stem cell research. This couldn't be further from the truth. The debate is over whether or not the government is going to fund these tests - not whether they will happen. Eventually they will be government funded anyway, though.

Additionally, people also speak as if they are some authority on wartime privacy issues - which they are not. In every war privacy is invaded for a period of time and afterwards the laws get reversed and we're back in the old status quo. I'm not saying this is a justification for invasion of my rights but it always happens and not just in America so I have to deal with it. I'm just glad my country doesn't conscript me.

Sure our policies affect other countries but tough shit, you're not calling the shots and neither am I. I vote in every election and haven't voted for the current administration ever (not even possible in the primaries since I'm a Democrat but I would have voted for McCain).

[Kolar]

We all have to do our small part even if it doesn't matter in the bigger picture. It's not realistic to expect normal people to get up and run for office but voting is a start, signing petitions, just doing something, anything helps. The system in our two countries is built up to make people think they can't effect change. I understand Canada and the US are connected at the hip economically, that's why I hate to see it going down the tube at the hands of idiots and terrorist pieces of shit. There's enough blame to go around but I am not a US Citizen, I nor my Government can effect political, social or economical change within your boarders without violating international law. I believe the best way of doing anything from outside is to criticize your Federal Government and how it functions and groups supporting it, not by grouping every American and blamming them for inaction or for voting for the other guy. Maybe it isn't the best way to effect change by blaming the people but it should be expected, by proxy the actions of your Govnerment do represent the will of the people (regardless of how he/she was voted into office or even if you didn't vote for the person) so blame and or inaction and bad choices will rest with the people.

While I respect the right for each person to vote for their representatives I question the logic, reasoning and intent many of them put into it as well as the information they may or may not have. I find it hard to understand conservative ideology on this aspect, if you vote for the other guy you're unpatriotic, unAmerican and harming your country. It shows a total lack of respect for the democatic process (this kind of crap isn't only limited to the US). My only problem with people who vote conservative is that more often then not they're sheep. Maybe it isn't entirely their fault, it's more the system and those in power who have polarized politics. They do it for religious reasons because their bible group said so, were told by Glen Beck (<-- Eric) or O'Reilly that everything is AO-freaking-K or because they hate gay people. Fuck, the only real conservatives I can relate to are the fiscals. At least their priorities are in order.


Edit: I would never have guessed you were left leaning or anywhere close to center Gen. The problem with the privacy issue is that this is a war on terror, supposidly. It is not a country/state, a person, a religion but an ideology, an idea. How long can that war be sustained? I mean neither in your or my life time and not even my two year old niece's life time will terrorism be eradicated so I guess what I am asking does that mean you would put up with violations of privacy your whole life, much less the non-transparency of it all?

[Facetious]

You can't come down here and help with a rock the vote campaign or something legally?

[genocidal]

The Iraqi War will end within 5-10 years because of overwhelming unpopularity in the US - much like Vietnam. Privacy rights will be restored by the Courts just as they were after World War II. Sensationalism goes both ways.

Just because I don't leap at every oppurtunity to criticize my government on an online board made up mostly of underage and unimportant people doesn't mean I don't have my own views that I do share in appropriate places. Much of what I say that looks right-wing is done in jest, like the 9/11 banners. For me, politics is a huge joke outside of any meaningful and intellectual discussion and subspace forums qualify as neither. I find that life is too short to make friends and enemies based on polarized views that won't change despite to what lengths you go with your ideas of logic and rationality.

Conservatism certainly has its merits and any far-right or far-left government is either a) bound for failure or b) bound for a return to the center. Socially, I'm very liberal. Economically, I'm fairly conservative. With regards to international relations, I'm an "optimistic realist," if that can make sense. Was I ever a proponent for the Iraqi War? No. Was and am I a proponent for the War in Afghanistan? Most definitely. War on Terror? Can't answer, too much is subsumed by this catch-phrase to say what I'm for and against without greater detail. I believe CIA intelligence gathering is foremost for my nation's security but I don't think it should come at the cost of liberty.

NSA spying is very sketchy to me and I think that it is imperative that those things be worked out in the court system. An NSA/Patriot Act overhaul is not only unlikely, it's generally unwise. First there is the (somewhat) obvious - NSA spying can and has prevented terrorist attacks. Second there is the political, nobody wants to open the gateway for terrorism. Polls (for what they're worth) show that Americans trust Democrats more on the War in Iraq but that they still trust Republicans more with the War on Terror. Sure you can say people are sheep and only believe what Bill O'Reilly thrusts down their throats but the fact of the matter is that people do think more than that. That's not to say that CNN and FoxNews are terrible for my country because they condense stories into soundbytes that are often misleading and almost always lack information. It is to say, though, that people can see that terrorist plots have been thwarted since 9/11, it's happened under a Republican's watch, and there are continuing and conscious efforts to prevent more attacks.

People don't realize that the advent of global terrorism has brought international conflict and international relations to a new place in history. No longer is there a specific enemy so generalizing is all the easier. Of course America is at the helm because we're the most powerful and we completely fucked up the Middle East so they have some legitimate gripes with us (as well as other major post-WWII powers). So it's not like this is a cut-and-dry case of "stop spying, tell the Middle East we love them and when we do things hypocritical that are in our own interest we're really being nice and caring but that we'll stop now, hand out abortions willy-nilly, and fund some scientific research that some people have moral claims against" and all will be well.

A lot has to happen in the intermediate, and that's what we're at. If I were countries like Canada and Western Europe I would be more concerned with how you're going to compete with the US and Asia scientifically and industrially in 20 years - but that's another debate entirely.

[Kolar]

I try not to be be a sensationist with it but my view is that this "war on terror" crap isn't just something you can compare to other wars where civil liberties are restored once a clear victor is resolved. Time will tell but when will it happen though? it's subjective to me. Even if Bin Laden is killed and his whole terrorist network is dismantled terorrism will still exist, it's a great rallying point for the Admin. so they won't claim victory for a while, the terrorist are hateful bastards so they won't claim victory until we're dead or converted to islam or scientology, whatever is popular at the time.

I don't make friends or enamies based on poltitical association, normally I find the state of political discourse in Canada and the US in such bad shape that I rarely bother outside on online forums to discuss it/rant at some idiots.

I know the solutions are much deeper then "stop spying, tell the Middle East we love them...". There are legitamate and legal ways of working to stop terrorist attacks, to spy on people legally, bring democracy to the middle east without a military invasion and punishing states that fund terrorist networks.

Everything else, I think people just want more transparency. Don't tell people you're for saving lives and health care then ban stem cell research funding, if that's your stance that a single cell, a single embryo is a human life then fucking say it. If you believe it's alright to invade a country in an act of preventive war then fucking say it, don't sell us crap about Iraq connected to 9/11, WMD... Just fucking be honest, we deserve that much from these fucks.

[Cops]

Will getitng George Bush out of office help? Of course it will, will it really relief tension between the world and the U.S? Not really, it's like putting a band-aid on a gun-shot wound. I think it's hillarious when you think about if the U.S was not the superpower it was, the president would now be serving five consecutive life sentences.

[Cops]

A lot has to happen in the intermediate, and that's what we're at. If I were countries like Canada and Western Europe I would be more concerned with how you're going to compete with the US and Asia scientifically and industrially in 20 years - but that's another debate entirely.

unfourtunately I can see Canada riding with America for the next twenty years, I can't see us making major steps to actually put any significant funding into any type of military.

I try not to be be a sensationist with it but my view is that this "war on terror" crap isn't just something you can compare to other wars where civil liberties are restored once a clear victor is resolved. Time will tell but when will it happen though? it's subjective to me. Even if Bin Laden is killed and his whole terrorist network is dismantled terorrism will still exist, it's a great rallying point for the Admin. so they won't claim victory for a while, the terrorist are hateful bastards so they won't claim victory until we're dead or converted to islam or scientology, whatever is popular at the time.

I think Clinton made him more of an "idea" than a person, he's been put up as the image for Terrorism and everything that stands against America, but the real question is how do you kill an idea? Even when he's dead, and he will die, either time or gun will end his life but what he stands for to people who hate America will remain. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[Cops]

I'm mad at every single American who hasn't exercised their right to vote. What have your turnouts been in the last 4 elections? That's inexcusable when the issues are this important. People with right wing views are more likely to vote, studies have proven this. If the majority of Americans do not approve of their government, every one of them should have been compaigning against the current government.

You speak like someone who has immense passion and desire in this field, and im going to assume you do.

I agree with Chomsky when he said "If you want to make changes in the world, you're going to have to be there day after day doing the boring, straightforward work of getting people interested in an issue, building a slightly bigger organization, carrying out the next move, experiencing frustration, and finally getting somewhere.That's how the world changes. That's how you get rid of slavery, that's how you get women's rights, that's how you get the vote, that's how you get protection for working people. Every gain you can point to came from that kind of effort-not from people going out to one demonstration and dropping out when nothing happens or voting once every four years and then going home. It's fine to get a better or less worse candiate in, but that's the beginning, not the end. If you end there, you might as well not vote."

Maybe it's just me but you seem like you care more about the votes than the issue, I agree with the above quote (chomsky quote) but I also think it's better to have 20 knowledgeable voters than 200 un-knowledgeable voters.

[Ignominy]

I'm mad at every single American who hasn't exercised their right to vote. What have your turnouts been in the last 4 elections? That's inexcusable when the issues are this important. People with right wing views are more likely to vote, studies have proven this. If the majority of Americans do not approve of their government, every one of them should have been compaigning against the current government.

My vote will never change anything ever in any situation ever ever. It takes a lot of effort to vote, and I never will. It is worthless, and therefore not worth my time.

Ideals and principles can be for the other fools who think they're making a difference.

Democracy is dandy I guess, but deluding yourself into thinking an individual voter can bring about change is silly.

Even if I felt my vote counted or even if it actually did, I still wouldn't have voted because no candidate in my lifetime has appealed to me, and I think voting for the guy you hate the least is stupid and bad because it encourages a two and only two party system.

[tugs]

(Chomsky):"If you want to make changes in the world, you're going to have to be there day after day doing the boring, straightforward work of getting people interested in an issue, building a slightly bigger organization, carrying out the next move, experiencing frustration, and finally getting somewhere.That's how the world changes. That's how you get rid of slavery, that's how you get women's rights, that's how you get the vote, that's how you get protection for working people. Every gain you can point to came from that kind of effort-not from people going out to one demonstration and dropping out when nothing happens or voting once every four years and then going home. It's fine to get a better or less worse candiate in, but that's the beginning, not the end. If you end there, you might as well not vote."

chomsky must have been on crack when he said this. weird because i think a lot of what he says is right on.
i've highlighted the people that are completely ignored in this quote. the people that go vote and maybe go to a protest once in a blue moon. Without the approval of a large number of these people, change won't happen. By not voting, you remove yourself from this group of people. I guess my point is that although a true democracy doesnt exist, your opinion is still useful, but only if you express it. go vote, it's your civil responsibility.

oh, and ignominy, i used to think that way too, but now i think that there's no way that any candidate will align with your political opinions anywhere near perfectly. if making it possible for more than 2 parties to exist is important to you, figure out what might do that, and vote for whoever you think is most likely to make any progress towards it.