ATTN: foreigners RE: USA

[Cops]

not to mention cinnamon toast crunch.

[Cops]

chomsky must have been on crack when he said this. weird because i think a lot of what he says is right on.
i've highlighted the people that are completely ignored in this quote. the people that go vote and maybe go to a protest once in a blue moon. Without the approval of a large number of these people, change won't happen. By not voting, you remove yourself from this group of people. I guess my point is that although a true democracy doesnt exist, your opinion is still useful, but only if you express it. go vote, it's your civil responsibility.

Is it also your civil responsibility to vote someone who may or may not stand for the issues that are important to you? I can understand you wanting to build consensus and numbers, it is crucial that people vote but at the same time I think it's more disastrous to have people voting who are not sure who they're voting for.

Isn't it hypocritical, we're becomming the ones who tell people what to do, who to vote for, and how they should feel? Liberal media these days is disgusting, I see this pressure that people put on others especially the youth. I hear a lot of people say they hate George Bush and when you ask them simply why, they retort "because he invaded Iraq" but you'll get a blank stare if you ask them to tell you one other reason why they hate him.

[Ignominy]

Eric is God is a sharp witted canadian who sees and considers many sides of an issue... but can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

I can see how you could interprete it that way. I care about kids liking Cinnamon Toast Crunch IF they are informed.

WRONG! It's the swirls of cinnamon sugar in every bite!

EDIT: DAMNIT COPS YOU RUINED IT

[Cops]

it's like crack

[Hero*]

yah, it really sucks having paved roads, electricity and indoor plumbing all across our nation.

Oh and having televison, an excess of food and money is really not that delectable.

i see that in a lot of places ive been to. Whats so special about you guys, your health care? sucksss to be american!

[Squeezer]

i see that in a lot of places ive been to. Whats so special about you guys, your health care? sucksss to be american!

As does our social security system, our low rate of unemployment to population ratio, our constitutional rights which are, for the most part, still upheld well.

Throw in that whole most powerul free standing military, and the awesome forms of entertainment our country has to offer, and I'd say it reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally sucks to live here.

[genocidal]

Actually, yeah our health care. Despite costing us more, offset by the fact that we're richer, it's of a far superior quality. Why do you think rich Canadians come to America for surgical procedures of a highly technical nature?

[Izor]

rofl ignominy

[Eric is God]

..

[Epinephrine]

Actually, yeah our health care. Despite costing us more, offset by the fact that we're richer, it's of a far superior quality. Why do you think rich Canadians come to America for surgical procedures of a highly technical nature?

Er actually American healthcare is not good at all. Americans spend more money per capita on health care than basically every other industrialized nation in the world by a fair margin. Yet the rates of disease, life expentancy, obesity, morbidity, childhood mortality, and so on are higher than most other places.

In fact America has more neonatologists than anywhere else in the world combined, yet has one of the highest neonatal death rates in the industrialized world.

It's true that the absolute richest 1% may be able to afford some awesome doctors, but for everyone else, it's a big sham.

And you know what? For most surgical procedures, it really doens't matter if you have the 'best doctor in the world' (whatever that means) or if you have the 2nd or 3rd best or even the 1000th best. It's pretty much the same. Nor does 'more expensive equiptment' really make THAT much of a difference. Really it doesn't... it's all a sham, and being in health care made me realize this.

[Cops]

My cousin went to America for a few years to make some money, she's a nurse and ended up making upwards up fifty thousand per year, when the currency's were at a twenty cent difference the money she made added up.

It's a repeating problem in Canada, atleast in Ontatrio, they want our nurses. Some hospitals offer everything, a place to stay and a sign on bonus plus a fat starting salary.

[genocidal]

No system is perfect and I'm not saying America's is. Funny that I derailed this thread into another health care debate. We pay more because this is where most of the drugs are created, the procedures invented, etc. We pay a lot because it creates competition. Competition=good for health care. Canada reaps the benefits with generic drugs invented in the US while we foot the bill for everyone else to have them.

And sure, you may not need the best doctor in every case but expertise helps. Just look at the amount of needless amputations in other countries, the number of flubbs doctors commit that make the news, etc. It becomes minimalized when doctors are highly accountable for what they do and are also at the same time the best at what they do. I'm not complaining about my health insurance costs and of course some people are but that can't be helped. My advice to them: move to Canada.

[Epinephrine]

No system is perfect and I'm not saying America's is. Funny that I derailed this thread into another health care debate. We pay more because this is where most of the drugs are created, the procedures invented, etc. We pay a lot because it creates competition. Competition=good for health care. Canada reaps the benefits with generic drugs invented in the US while we foot the bill for everyone else to have them.

And sure, you may not need the best doctor in every case but expertise helps. Just look at the amount of needless amputations in other countries, the number of flubbs doctors commit that make the news, etc. It becomes minimalized when doctors are highly accountable for what they do and are also at the same time the best at what they do. I'm not complaining about my health insurance costs and of course some people are but that can't be helped. My advice to them: move to Canada.

This is where you are just completely ignorant on medicine and how medicine works.

American health care costs more for the major reason that it IS privatized. People are trying to PROFIT off it, so they CHARGE HIGHER PRICES.

It's that simple.

Yes doctors make more money, and so do HMOs and so do nurses and so do lab technicians who do the tests. Then hospitals are out to make a profit too, so they charge more per hospital stay. Then there's the fact that because of legal liabilities (thanks to the amazing amount of lawsuits in America), insurance costs a lot more in the US as well, thus doctors have to charge more. For instance, in America to be an Ob/Gyn the insurance is easily over $100,000/year.

For almost every single use of health care out there, it honestly does not matter if you have the 'doctor that chargest the most' or not. I admit in some things it is nice to get the best in the world. Say if you are doing complex facial plastic surgery you want the best. Or say you are considering doing IVF (in vitro fertilization) you want the best. Sure... but these are not what most people do when they need the health care system.

For many things, and the common things really like treating cancer, appendicitis, cataracts, broken hip, coronary artery bypass... you know... most skilled doctors who do these things are quite competent. And you know what else... they will also do the EXACT SAME treatments. Why? Well it's because they don't want to get sued. It's not like TV where some doctor will go 'hey wait a second, I will do it this way that only i know how and all my patients do 20% better'. No one will do that because they will get sued. There are standards which are followed, and as such the treatment regimes offered are... pretty much the same. There are very specific guidelines about how to proceed through treatment and what to do.

As for higher costs paying for drug research and medical research, this is a red herring. Even factoring in those costs, America STILL spends a lot more per capita on health care simply because it IS A BUSINESS out to make a PROFIT.

And no Canadian health care isn't perfect by a longshot, we don't spend enough money on MRIs and on paying for minimizing waiting lists for surgeries, and our system needs fixing... but by almost every indicator of health, America is actually worse off or equivalent to Canada.

Finally your comment about 'needless amputations' and so on is a complete red herring. I think you just made that up, honestly.

There is no way to really rank who is the best doctor out there. Doctors don't all work for more money, so just because American doctors on average make more money, doesn't mean they are BETTER. (For instance university professor docs usually make much less money, but they still choose to do it because it is their passion). So just because a doctor charges more... doesn't mean they really are better. And you know what? They aren't.

[Facetious]

The insurance companies really gouge the hell out of our citizens, there's no doubt about that. I think the main problem with Canadian healthcare, as Epi mentioned, is the amount of time you have to wait, but I'd certainly rather have government funded healthcare than our god-awful system with that one exception. Typically, when an insurance company pays for a procedure such as an MRI, they have to pay half as much as you would pay if you were funding the procedure itself. The system is fucked, doctors and American citizens are paying for it now and will pay for it significantly more in the future. Don't be surprised when your insurance company treats you similarly to the Canadian government and YOU have to start waiting for procedures yourself.

[genocidal]

How am I completely ignorant? If we want to get into personal experience with health care I can hold my own as well. I've volunteered for hospitals for 4 years, my mother is a doctor, and my uncle is the manager of a Kaiser hospital in San Francisco. From speaking with them and my own observations I'm pretty sure I know what the fuck I'm talking about. I'm not sure why you think what we're saying is so different - I could agree with 80% of that fat post you just made.

Of course it costs more because it's privatized - that was my argument for why it's better. It's fucking capitalism. I'm not saying that your doctors are bad by any means at all; I was saying that the best trained doctors stay in the states where they make more money. If you want proof of that refer to Face and TK's discussion of CFL vs. NFL players.

Needless amputations do occur, do you not read the news? Hell, they happen in America sometimes - just not to the extent as in other countries. I was mainly talking about countries like Mexico and some parts of Eastern Europe where health care is good but isn't comparable to America or even Canada's.

I'm quite familiar with how the health care system works and I can assure you my uncle has his gripes with the insurance-run way of things being in charge of a giant hospital but that's just the way things fucking are if you want to attract the best people. I mean this is, at its base, an argument for free-market capitalism and for some reason you think I'm saying Canada has piece of shit doctors.