Canada VS America

[Hakaku]

1) True, but false again. "Law 101 did ban other languages on signs, but this changed significantly in December 1993 with the adoption of Law 86 eliminating most restrictions on the use of other languages on signs as long as French remains predominant. " (comparably, just as English, or Inuktitut is predominant in other provinces and territories)

2) And the key word is "wants". Who wouldn't want it? Québec is after all, the province with the highest population of non-English speakers, and of economic importance to Canada. But not everyone will get what they want. (and 'they', being a gross over-generalization)

3) It's useful if not a must in more than 4 provinces (and it used to be more), that's still a significant proportion of French speakers throughout Canada. Nunavut itself is slowly becoming an Inuktitut-only territory. They may not write laws for signs to be bilingual (when they aren't), but their politics will have to be entirely in Inuktitut (or another major Inuit language) according to a recent law passed.

France on the other hand, doesn't give a fuck what anyone says. If you don't pronounce it their way, they'll shun you and tell you to speak English. Canada and other French-speaking countries and communities around the world are more accepting of dialectal differences. There's not just 2 places in the world that speak French.

4) Ignorance. Not every French Canadian hates English speakers. Perhaps those who do, do the same as you and grotesquely over-generalize that all English speakers hate French speakers. But the fact is, the French language IS spoken outside Québec. You seriously need to get out of your box someday and grab some sunshine.

Québec wanting to split from Canada happened after quite a few events, which included the repression over 200 years of the French language. Moreso, in the last 100, French was banned from all provinces. - People revolted, fought for their rights notably in Ontario and Québec. Québec followed both an educational and political reform. And "Vive le Québec libre!" (the chant for a free Québec), begun with the Frenchman Charles de Gaulle (read here). You can't blame the quebecois, their education was worse than yours is at the moment, so anything that could improve it, was a plus. Why would you hate someone for wanting better education?
But maybe you failed your Canadian History class as well?

The issue of Québec splitting being less than 50% now, and it's still a very controversial subject. But Québec is not the only known province that has wanted to split [in fact, territory status was considered before, but rejected], Newfoundland has also expressed disagreement (they only joined Canada with a 52% vote in favor), but Québec is the only province to actually attempt a referendum.

And you can't just print money and claim it as valid currency, since all it will be worth is 0. If Québec is not an independant nation, it has no use for a second monoetary unit worth 0.

[Kolar]

1) True, but false again. "Law 101 did ban other languages on signs, but this changed significantly in December 1993 with the adoption of Law 86 eliminating most restrictions on the use of other languages on signs as long as French remains predominant. " (comparably, just as English, or Inuktitut is predominant in other provinces and territories)

This is still in violation of the Charter since it does not ensure equality or the respect of both languages. Outside of Quebec it is mandated by law that both English and French have to be displayed equally.

4) Ignorance. Not every French Canadian hates English speakers. Perhaps those who do, do the same as you and grotesquely over-generalize that all English speakers hate French speakers. But the fact is, the French language IS spoken outside Québec. You seriously need to get out of your box someday and grab some sunshine.

Only 17% outside of Quebec. So if our Government is spending unknown amounts of money to educate people in the French Canadian language, as it is required to obtain a high school diploma, why is it that only 17% of people speak it outside of your province? How is this an effective use of educational resources? It's certainly not logically needed because it's only preserving your "culture" but it does not serve the economic or social needs of the communities outside of Quebec.

I'm not for generalizing an entire people but I would try living there during one of those ridiculous referendums as a Canadian before you even get into the issue of hatred.

[Hakaku]

This is still in violation of the Charter since it does not ensure equity or the respect of both languages. Outside of Quebec it is mandated by law that both English and French have to be displayed equally.

Only 17% outside of Quebec. So if our Government is spending unknown amounts of money to educate people in the French Canadian language, as it is required to obtain a high school diploma, why is it that only 17% of people speak it outside of your province? How is this an effective use of educational resources? It's certainly not logically needed because it's only preserving your "culture" but it does not serve the economic or social needs of the communities outside of Quebec.

I'm not for generalizing an entire people but I would try living there during one of those ridiculous referendums as a Canadian before you even get into the issue of hatred.

The only notable sign that is no longer printed bilingually is the STOP sign, but people have tried to change it, until the "language police" vandalized and removed the English off of them. Most other important signs are bilingual. Those that are not, are equally not in French in English communities. Compare Montréal to Winnipeg signs. Then tell me who's violating the charter of rights and freedoms, if not both?

In French HighSchools, they equally have to learn English (despite not-so-great results in many schools), if anything, they've proposed having kids forced to learn 3 languages in order to obtain a HS diploma. Tell me where the government wastes its money, in French (an official language), English (same), a third language, or all the other courses? My school board has to study religion (which is after all, paid by the government also), but not everyone's religious? How does religion help me socially or economically?

Once again, there's a lot of courses taught in schools. A lot of it is obligatory, some of it not. Those that are though, are funded by the government in the end. French might not be useful for you, or the guy next to you, but maybe neither is Math, Gym Class, English class...? Education in a second language won't kill you. But if money is all you care for, then stop paying your taxes, and move elsewhere (e.g. the US).

And the referendum & hatred goes both ways, I'm not blind to what's around me.


And PS: Once again, ignorance prevails. I've never once claimed to be Québécois, so stop grossely-overgeneralizing that every person who can speak french is from Québec. (bolded and underlined your comments for reference)

[Kolar]

The only notable sign that is no longer printed bilingually is the STOP sign, but people have tried to change it, until the "language police" vandalized and removed the English off of them. Most other important signs are bilingual. Those that are not, are equally not in French in English communities. Compare Montréal to Winnipeg signs. Then tell me who's violating the charter of rights and freedoms, if not both?

Stop signs are only in English pretty much across the board. The issue is that the current law is in violation of the Charter. Even now as you've said Bill 86 does not ensure equality and even then there is no law stating the requirement of both as in the rest of Canada. And pointing to one or more instances of where it is not (in reference to your Inuktitut comment) still does not change the fact that it shouldn't happen for any reason in this country.

Someone may contest the exclusion of one language or the other within reason because there is no law overriding the Charter as in Manitoba or Ontario, not to mention precedent and social pressures placed on Quebec officials not to break with cultural norms of exclusion. To date actually the Notwithstanding clause has only been used over this subject.



My point was that those who believe learning French here in Ontario will benefit them economically and socially in the future, take it as an elective. If it is deemed too important as is the case with the core subject, Mathematics for example, make it a curriculum requirement. But the idea is to mirror the curriculum with what people really need. World Religions is also an elective course here. I can give you plenty of examples of mandatory credits that are pointless. Dance, drama being my top two.

Education in a second language won't kill you. But if money is all you care for, then stop paying your taxes, and move elsewhere (e.g. the US).

It is to many a road block in their education and when I see little benefit, the kids even less the whole thing seems pointless. If kids are struggling to understand the basics in Math, English, and Science to begin with adding a pointless requirement on the top doesn't help. And my primary concern is not money. If we are sinking a lot of educational resources into this and somehow it is not effectively teaching kids the language, then that is a major issue to me.

And PS: Once again, ignorance prevails. I've never once claimed to be Québécois, so stop grossely-overgeneralizing that every person who can speak french is from Québec.

I really don't see how that is ignorant. I assumed you were from Quebec because you had some knowledge of Quebec politics. Why not state where you are from then? since you've made references to your life as I have.

[Zerzera]

Less whining about Canada, and more Bush bashing please.

[Material Girl]

You know, I think it's silly that Canadians still have to pay a lot more for items such as books and calendars, even after the CAD has pretty much become equal to USD. It's ridiculous and unfair and I refuse to buy anything until it changes!!!!! IT'S ALL DUBBYA'S FAULT!@#!@

[genocidal]

America vs. Canada

I just let the numbers speak for themselves.

[H.M.S. Stargazer]

2) it's like letting Texas or South Carolina make decisions for America.

I believe Texas already does.
Go Dubya Go.

Btw when did this turn into a canada versus Quebec thread???

[Money]

Texas should be its own country. It basically is now, with Texas Law and all.

[a21ozcoldcup]

You guys are missing the point of this thread.


QUEBEC IS WAYYYY BETTER THAN CANADIA AND SHOULD RUN IT!

[Cops]

Quebec French sounds NOTHING like real French, It's not even ignorant that a French person would tell you to shut the fuck up and speak English.

I've never claimed to be Québécois

the e gives it away.

We spend billions of dollars teaching kids a language and culture, primarily a language that they can only use in Canada? Don't give me this French colony bullshit, try and speak Canadian French anywhere else in the world, it's dumbed down so much that it actually sounds like English, so why not speak English?

The amount of money we pump into the French system isn't be economically responsible, we're not even teaching people a valuable skill that can be translated into their current or future life. That is unless they want to live in Quebec and considering the country wants to become their own country I'd say fuck that idea in it's dirty ass.

[Cops]

I believe Texas already does.
Go Dubya Go.

Btw when did this turn into a canada versus Quebec thread???

I don't want to get into the debate about state laws vs federal laws because my opinions differ from most people, basically all I was saying is that the federal government as far as international matters are concerned should be dealt with by the federal government. I don't want Quebec representing 'Canada' in international matters, just like you probably wouldn't want one state representing you in America.

This has nothing to do with state laws going against federal laws, I'd actually like to stay out of that debate primarily because it's another 4 hours of bullshit. My point was that Canada should be represented in the international community as Canada not Quebec and Canada.

[Hakaku]

Stop signs are only in English pretty much across the board. The issue is that the current law is in violation of the Charter. Even now as you've said Bill 86 does not ensure equality and even then there is no law stating the requirement of both as in the rest of Canada. And pointing to one or more instances of where it is not (in reference to your Inuktitut comment) still does not change the fact that it shouldn't happen for any reason in this country.

Someone may contest the exclusion of one language or the other within reason because there is no law overriding the Charter as in Manitoba or Ontario, not to mention precedent and social pressures placed on Quebec officials not to break with cultural norms of exclusion. To date actually the Notwithstanding clause has only been used over this subject.

My point was, don't just point out the flaws of one province, look at Canada as a whole. If that one province 'violates' the charter, maybe others do too? Ontario and New Brunswick are basically the only two provinces that actually are mostly bilingual in all places. In the territories, French used to be of importance, but since the language has declined over the years, you won't find bilingual signs unless they're in an aboriginal language into English.

But if you care so much about having English road signs in Québec, assuming you have difficulty with a big red-octagonal sign, then appeal to the province in court. Unlike other provinces though, in Québec you're less likely to be denied service or be fired because you do speak English and not French.

I really don't see how that is ignorant. I assumed you were from Quebec because you had some knowledge of Quebec politics. Why not state where you are from then? since you've made references to your life as I have.

I'm from Ontario since you care to know.

Quebec French sounds NOTHING like real French, It's not even ignorant that a French person would tell you to shut the fuck up and speak English.

Actually, Québec French is much closer to older forms of spoken French in France. Some differences and expressions change over time, but it's the same language. The reason French people have more trouble with outside accents is because they're not used to it, since their media revolves around France. In Canada, we're more used to world accents and media coming from elsewhere, which makes it easier for us to understand others.

[Hakaku]

The amount of money we pump into the French system isn't be economically responsible, we're not even teaching people a valuable skill that can be translated into their current or future life. That is unless they want to live in Quebec and considering the country wants to become their own country I'd say fuck that idea in it's dirty ass.

I shouldn't bother, since it's useless to try. But French IS spoken outside Québec, and while that's only 17% of Canada's population as Kolar noted, that's still an important number of people.

This has nothing to do with state laws going against federal laws, I'd actually like to stay out of that debate primarily because it's another 4 hours of bullshit. My point was that Canada should be represented in the international community as Canada not Quebec and Canada.

Then if you want Canada as 1 nation represented, don't state that you want "Canada and Québec" to be represented internationally by having Quebec split.

Do you even understand what kind of economic importance Quebec has? Since you seem uptight about your money comparatively to 1 subject taught in school, it would cost Canada more to lose Quebec and would have some difficulties with the big gap between the maritime provinces and the other provinces & territories. - But I'm no expert, perhaps you can prove me wrong?

[Cops]

Actually, Québec French is much closer to older forms of spoken French in France. Some differences and expressions change over time, but it's the same language. The reason French people have more trouble with outside accents is because they're not used to it, since their media revolves around France. In Canada, we're more used to world accents and media coming from elsewhere, which makes it easier for us to understand others.

France has trouble with accents because their media is exclusive to France? Basically your excuse is that France is sheltered from international media, which is complete bullshit.

he reason French people have more trouble with outside accents is because they're not used to it, since their media revolves around France

In Canada, we're more used to world accents and media coming from elsewhere.

Do you know anything about the media industry inside Canada? All News Broadcasting Stations all across the world have a system which is called a wire, this wire feeds direct stories from throughout the world. Currently I'm patched into ENPS that feeds stories from all over the world. I guarantee you that France has a system much like ours.