Barack Obama wins the Democratic Nomination

[Cops]

He also stood tall and basically wants to create an administration that does not involve lobbyists, you cannot have worked for as a lobbyists before or after his administration. He might not want to scrap NAFTA, but at least a politician admits that it doesn't work, that's a fucking start in my books.

He wants Universal Health Care, he wants to standardize some system of health care in which all people have access to. And since this is the best solution there is right now then it's the right solution.

He wants to end a war that is crippling the economy, he wants to focus on building up his nation and restoring some of its former glory.

He understands how divided your country is, and whether you or anyone else wants to admit it, stepping into New York and going to Texas or Florida or any other south state has a completly different feel to it.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I gotta go to work in a half hour, but give me a little time tonight and I'll poop you out an essay on exactly why I support the guy.

The short-version:
End the Iraq war and reinvest the funds into our economy. I want socialized health care and socialized education, including free higher level learning for all.

I suppose the problem here is that he wouldn't reinvest the money back into the economy. Misallocated resources would simply be re-misallocated by the State.

The one redeeming thing is his stance to end the war. As Mises & Co. have said for years - and what everyone else is just now figuring out - is that the State's "perpetual wars" are only used to erode freedoms and liberty on every level, be it political, economic, social, etc.

But we'll still lose rights, we'll still lose freedoms. It'll just be different freedoms we lose, and of course the implication won't be so obvious. The impact won't be immediate and/or outright death and violence - but there is still death and violence. There is still coercion. Regardless of your compassion... is using coercion to enforce compassion, really being compassionate? "Love without freedom is a fraud; freedom without love is also a fraud. Love and freedom are a duality in human life, and having only one is not an option. Each of those two qualities depends upon the other."

Since America is now all about the here-and-now, I suppose that I, too, can pretend that fifty years down the line, socialized health care will somehow not come back to haunt us. But I won't, and I'll fight against it and other instances of State coercion.

[Pearl Jam]

Iraq is a shitstorm, but if you were to pull all of the troops from there in one fell swoop you create an absolutely nasty terrorist vacuum in a large portion of that area. It's damned if we do, damned if we don't at this point. I agree with installing a plan in the near future where we withdraw large amounts of troops at a steady pace, but this all-or-nothing mentality won't work.

On topic: Both candidates have major flaws. Obama is more popular because he appeals to younger people and people that know next to nothing about the major issues in this country because of his super-positive, yes we can bullshit.

I like Obama- he seems like a great guy. His charisma is through the roof. But his actual stances on several topics are so...ehhhh. He refuses to commit one way or the other on a multitude of things. At least McCain sticks to his guns, no matter how much he comes off like a cranky curmudgeon. I'll need to do quite a bit more research before I commit one way or the other (I'm a fairly moderate republican, leaning towards the democrat side...cut me some slack, I've lived in Kansas and Iowa my entire life), but I do know this: both choices are a step up from ol' G-Dub.

[Cops]

Jeb Bush had been running Florida then, old people were alive then, cubans were coming into florida illegally and then taking control and not get sent back home because they vote for big brother bush.

florida is just as bad as any other state trust me, we did that stupid bush recount incident so it is technically our fault. But trust, that the tides are turnin in favor to youth, and minorities whose populace is so strong that they are now the majority.


Scoop just wanted to disprove that all southerners might in fact be a closet racist.

He certainly made an ass of himself trying to.

Florida's nice man, I love it there. I just know that being there isn't the same as being in the North, I personally enjoy everything about the south besides a few idiots and sweet tea, seriously fuck sweet tea. I'll be there over Christmas, and honestly I see myself going there at least once a year. The place is absolutely phenomenal, I'm just a bit afraid of going into water.

Iraq is a shitstorm, but if you were to pull all of the troops from there in one fell swoop you create an absolutely nasty terrorist vacuum in a large portion of that area. It's damned if we do, damned if we don't at this point. I agree with installing a plan in the near future where we withdraw large amounts of troops at a steady pace, but this all-or-nothing mentality won't work.

I think the democrats realize that, but there needs to be a push to end this shit at some point, some how. Increasing troop numbers works against that principal, and the nation needs to know that its leaders are doing everything they can to get Iraq to a point where they can respectively walk the fuck away from it. This idea of success and winning is complete bullshit, there's no winning in this situation and the best thing America can do is work towards pulling out.

[Cops]

fuckin double post, sorry x2

[Squeezer]

I suppose the problem here is that he wouldn't reinvest the money back into the economy. Misallocated resources would simply be re-misallocated by the State.

The one redeeming thing is his stance to end the war. As Mises & Co. have said for years - and what everyone else is just now figuring out - is that the State's "perpetual wars" are only used to erode freedoms and liberty on every level, be it political, economic, social, etc.

But we'll still lose rights, we'll still lose freedoms. It'll just be different freedoms we lose, and of course the implication won't be so obvious. The impact won't be immediate and/or outright death and violence - but there is still death and violence. There is still coercion. Regardless of your compassion... is using coercion to enforce compassion, really being compassionate? "Love without freedom is a fraud; freedom without love is also a fraud. Love and freedom are a duality in human life, and having only one is not an option. Each of those two qualities depends upon the other."

Since America is now all about the here-and-now, I suppose that I, too, can pretend that fifty years down the line, socialized health care will somehow not come back to haunt us. But I won't, and I'll fight against it and other instances of State coercion.

Of course we wont get those funds back, but not spending $5 billion a month on a sinkhole will certainly help the budget.

state coercion? I can't afford to get sick! I can't miss school and my various jobs, but I can't get medicine or afford to see a doctor. My parent's health insurance plan expired on me when I turned 18. Yet each paycheck I offer forward part of my hard earned funds and the govt. spends it on bombs. I'm all for having the government out of my private life as much as possible, but they're going to continue to tax me and if I'm going to have to pay then it damn well better go to things that benefit me, or at least prove to be beneficial rather than the last 8 years of harm. The way I see it, I'm coercing them into finally taking accountability for all the money they seem to misuse.

I see it more as personal empowerment and he, more than anything, stands for and represents that.

edit: And I know what you might say...Well, maybe you shouldn't spend money on weed etc. etc. (I have stopped smoking cigs. It got too expensive and I was tired of the smell), but what if I get some sort of terminal illness that I wouldn't be able to afford unless I did have health care? Hell, I could have cancer right now and not even know it because I haven't been to a check up since I left for school. I can't even get my teeth cleaned by the dentist <_<

[Cops]

I feel bad for you dude, and other students who come out of college with immaculate debt and no health insurance. That's just wrong.

[Izor]

How are we fortifying anti-american beliefs in the area by being there? I've been over this before with you people. I'm here. I deal with these people on a daily basis. The average person in this area is no different than the average person in the united states or any other part of the world. They want to show up to work, get paid normally, have a normal family, and practice their religion. It sounds like a simple life, right? Unfortunately their shitbag gov't does not allow them to get an unbiased view on what america is all about. For them to leave the country/area, it would cost ~25k USD. The TCN's that I work with here for the most part like America, because they understand what were about by working/talking with us. By helping them out and putting in a government that is more like ours, we not only allow these people to be free, but also we give ourselves an ally after all is said and done.

Scoring a 99 on the asvab is nice jerome, but its not really a huge accomplishment by anyones standards. I was asking you what youve done with your life as far as a career is concerned...maybe a degree in something other than a BA...you know something that matters. Getting high and posting on forums while being thousands of dollars in debt from college loans is hardly something to brag about.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Iraq is a shitstorm, but if you were to pull all of the troops from there in one fell swoop you create an absolutely nasty terrorist vacuum in a large portion of that area. It's damned if we do, damned if we don't at this point. I agree with installing a plan in the near future where we withdraw large amounts of troops at a steady pace, but this all-or-nothing mentality won't work.

in the current situation, various rival Iraqi groups - Shias, Sunnis, Kurds, etc. must deal with one another. why would this change if there were no american troops present? why does everyone assume that american forces are holding the lid on an otherwise likely explosion of violence?

i love this war. we went in to it to secure out homeland - yet Bush still signed into law a piece of legislation that makes "terrorism insurance" a coverable option. if the war was really to lessen the threat at home, why did he need to do that?

and now we have to stay simply BECAUSE we went in. what sort of weird moral obligation is that? why don't we ask, oh i dunno, the middle easterners about what they want? it seems obvious to me what they want - they're willing to die to get that message across.

[Bioture]

oh yay.

[Fit of Rage]

With the $600 billion spent in Iraq we could have:

• Significantly upgraded our missile defense system and have added a laser-based threat-elimination system care of our friends at Northrop Grumman
• Significantly improved healthcare standards and practices in the United States
• Satisfactorally boosted the economy
• Begun to develop an infrastructure to become entirely oil-independent (the entire program to change all coal and petroleum based power plants to solar and wind would have cost no more than $420 billion in total). There is a plethora of land in the southwest that does nothing except bake for over 3/4 of the year; if solar panels even with today's efficiency were implemented (~13% efficient) with the aforementioned $420 billion, we could be mostly oil-independent by 2020 and 69% oil-free by 2050, not to mention cutting wasted energy by over 35%. I am not pulling these facts out of my ass, here's the Scientific American article

[Cops]

in the current situation, various rival Iraqi groups - Shias, Sunnis, Kurds, etc. must deal with one another. why would this change if there were no american troops present? why does everyone assume that american forces are holding the lid on an otherwise likely explosion of violence?

i love this war. we went in to it to secure out homeland - yet Bush still signed into law a piece of legislation that makes "terrorism insurance" a coverable option. if the war was really to lessen the threat at home, why did he need to do that?

and now we have to stay simply BECAUSE we went in. what sort of weird moral obligation is that? why don't we ask, oh i dunno, the middle easterners about what they want? it seems obvious to me what they want - they're willing to die to get that message across.

that's exactly why I find it funny that Izor believes we can secure an ally out of this, I might not believe in a full pull-out but he's delusional if he thinks this war can be won, this isn't a war that has winners and losers, just losers.

Like Squeezer and fit of rage said, the money that's spent on this war can easily be used to stimulate the economy and get the ball rolling.

[Jerome Scuggs]

Scoring a 99 on the asvab is nice jerome, but its not really a huge accomplishment by anyones standards. I was asking you what youve done with your life as far as a career is concerned...maybe a degree in something other than a BA...you know something that matters. Getting high and posting on forums while being thousands of dollars in debt from college loans is hardly something to brag about.

Sigh I thought I got the point across about making stupid assumptions about things you know nothing about.

Every year of my tuition is paid in full up-front because I do my own finances. I'm not in debt to anyone, nor ever will be or have been. Recently my investments have returned very nicely specifically because I invested along the principles of what I believe in.

And a week ago, Shreveport held a very big meeting. Apparently most of us are sitting under a big pile of oil shale, and there's a bidding war to buy the rights to drill under us. So, ah, I can afford to get high and post on forums all day... because I'm not an idiot and I have my shit on lockdown. I don't need to join up with the armed forces and have a chain of shitheads tell me how to eat, breathe and sleep. I can make decisions on my own and so-far, I'm financially solvent and can afford everything I need.

I'm not going to settle for whatever shit-life you have, Izor, that made you such a bitter, stupid, ignorant, and sort of pathetic person. I might not have all the money I want right now... but I'm 19. You're arguing with a 19 year-old. I don't have a degree because it's not physically possible for me to have attained one yet, given my circumstances.

Regardless, maybe I don't even need money. Despite all the talk I do about the importance of economics, I could just as easily kick back on a ranch and live the simple, immaterial life for the end of days. I'm a pretty laid back dude, I don't need much.

I'm all set for whatever happens to come my way. I find it very empowering to be as free as possible.

I might move to a place called (ironically enough - seriously my life is so weird) Jerome, Arizona - a city that recently declared itself "free" from the invasive Patriot Act. Seems like an awesome place.

[Izor]

Its not like pulling out will get them to like us...we're just going to be fighting this war in a few years if we do that..

[Squeezer]

Its not like pulling out will get them to like us...we're just going to be fighting this war in a few years if we do that..

unless we (!) choose not to go to war in a few years.